Realm magic for fantasy campaign

[Devil_Dante]

i mean.. FP cost it's a way to avoid spells too powerfulls. Because the cost ramps up way too fast. But in a certain way, to build up a lot of FP, characters need a lot of different stuff in order to have them: powerstone, magic items, ER and so on.

FP are limited to ability scores (HT and FP), while skills/very hard, at range of 16, are already high cost (with an average of 13 in IQ are 20 points. A lot to invest.)
But in this way, create big areas or big effects become impossible: more than 5 as penalty means a low chance to cast the spell.

MoS creates big effects with low skill investment: with 14-16, you have an average of 3-5 successes. And the spell is already more powerfull than using counterpart of skill penalty or FP. And it's led to use more spell per fight.

@Anaraxes: About what i said on area spell: damage declines linearly, so, at 4 meters from the center, the damage is 1/4. Negligeble.
Nonetheless, your approach is very interesting. Flavour-wise, i say that it's just a matter of finesse. The differences between a good mage and a bad mage is the knowledge of the laws of magic and how good they are utilizing them. But for greater effect (more damage for a damage spell, or a stronger transformation, for a shapeshifting spell), the power (aka, FP), does matter too.

That's why, something like damage, IMO should be improved by spending FP. A bigger area should be a matter of skill, so MoS or skill penalty. Improving mental of physical abilities, thanks to body or mind spells, should be a matter of skill of the caster, so, again, MoS or skill penalty.

MoS and Skill penalty, are pretty much the same flavour, but with non comparable effect: achieving 4 MoS is not even close to have -4 to the roll. That bothers me a bit: MoS is toos trong (with a skill of 15-16), the other is too weak.

Otherwise i didn t understand it correctly, MoS applies to every parameter chosen, but skill penalty is applied for every parameter chosen.

In the end, i'd prefer having one set of rules to applying in every situation. Your example of fire area effect is cool, and could be used once in a while for particolar situations, but i'd rather know that my players already know how they can improve their spells, instead to decide in every situation.

In my mind, i have only one problem: don't want neither spellcasters, nor fighters, have nothing to do because the other "class" overwhelms a combat. Balancing FP reduces the number of spells cast (one spell per fight because he uses all his FP for one spell is something i don't like, but 10 spell in a fight is bad in the same way).

I hope you see my point here

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In general, I prefer FP cost to either skill penalty or margin of success for all parameters (it just seems fairer). Of course, you could allow players to accept skill penalties to reduce FP cost and/or you could reduce FP cost by MoS. The former rewards high skill with consistent savings while the latter rewards good luck. Using both effects to reduce FP would allow for a highly versatile magical system.

Rather than having MoS reduce energy cost (which requires you to adjust the energy cost after casting the spell), consider having MoS amplify the benefit of the energy cost: you spend enough energy to achieve the minimum Parameters you want for a successful casting, and then apply the MoS on top of that — or vice versa. Taking Area as an example, you pay the base energy cost to get an area that will be determined by your MoS. With an MoS of zero, that's a 2-yard diameter; with an MoS of 6, that's a 20-yard diameter. But if you pay double the base energy cost, you double the diameter that your MoS gives you. Triple the energy cost, triple the diameter; and so on.

Also: while the book suggests that everything should be handled through energy cost, skill penalty, or margin of success, there are a few other possibilities to consider:

1. Time Taken. This works similar to energy cost; but instead of spending more energy, this approach suggests spending more time. For instance, doubling the radius of an area spell might require you to double the casting time.

2. Ceremonial magic. Similar to Time Taken, but not as direct, Ceremonial Magic lets you take a casting that's too energy-intensive to do all at once and perform it in a non-time-intensive environment. You're probably not going to see ceremonial castings in combat; but if you're using your magic strategically rather than tactically, that's not going to be a problem.

3. Magical tools and spell components. Having the right tools on hand could provide benefits akin to accepting a skill penalty; but instead of it manifesting as a reduced chance of success, it manifesting as gear that you need to carry with you, pull out, and use in order to get the Parameter benefits. Spell components (or “consumable materials”) could likewise substitute for, or augment, energy costs. See GURPS Magic p.222 for more ideas to work with. The trick would lie in determining appropriate “exchange rates”: what's the FP equivalent of, say, a pound of eagle feathers when working with the Air Realm? If I'm attempting an Earth spell, what's the “skill penalty equivalent” of having an anvil on hand? And so on.

4. CP investment. As Emerald Cat pointed out, one benefit to using skill penalties is that you can buy them off using Techniques. In theory, this gives us a means of looking at more powerful mages in terms of spending CPs in order to be more powerful: if we treat each Parameter as a separate Technique, each CP gives Parameter benefits comparable to taking on a -1 skill penalty, but without actually penalizing the casting roll.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Devil_Dante

@Anaraxes: About what i said on area spell: damage declines linearly, so, at 4 meters from the center, the damage is 1/4.

I see what you mean. I'd call that an "explosion" rather than an Area spell. Area spells affect every hex in them equally, like Magic's Create Fire. An explosion doesn't pay for the size of the area it might affect (that is, a radius equal to the dice of damage); it just pays for the base damage, times that 1.5x multiplier for being an explosion.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Rather than having MoS reduce energy cost (which requires you to adjust the energy cost after casting the spell), consider {that} you spend enough energy to achieve the minimum Parameters you want for a successful casting, and then apply the MoS on top of that

A bigger area isn't necessarily more "successful", though. It might be actively undesirable, as with allies fighting near the targets or valuable objects nearby. Perhaps the rule should be phrased not to be an automatic increase, but allow caster's choice of exact area, anywhere from "base" paid for up to the MoS-determined maximum. Casters could guarantee their result by paying enough FP, or (if they choose) skimp a bit and hope to get lucky. Or just pay the minimum and take whatever they get.

You could also do a MoS/FP cost blend the other way around: roll, and if the MoS isn't big enough, the mage can pony up some more FP (perhaps limited to a level or two) to get the result they wanted. Narratively, this can represent dramatic spellcasting where the caster detects some resistance and has to fight through it (or exhaust themself trying). Probably a little detailed for routine combat spells.

The biggest difference to me between MoS and a skill penalty is flavor. MoS is random, varying from cast to cast of the same spell by the same mage in the same conditions. This feel can be good for settings where magic is supposed to be chaotic and unpredictable, less good of a match for those settings where magic is a carefully studied and formulaic craft.

[Devil_Dante]

well.. those are huge tips
Using FP after MoS in order to increase parameters it's a very cool thing.
As well as for techniques.

Of corse, i have to choose the best set up.

I can set the FP to empower the parameters from skill penalty, and allow technique to be bought. Maybe allowing a maximum rank of 4 (soaking up a penalty of 4 at maximum, for 4 CP).

Using this set up for every parameter is too much?

[dataweaver]

For what it's worth, “take only as much of the benefit as you want” is something that I've been taking as a given where MoS is concerned — so much so that I neglected to mention it.

As I see it, MoS should always have a minimal effect that you achieve with a minimal success (which is why I've argued against MoS-based all-or-nothing effects), and an increased effect that you achieve with a greater success; but you should never be forced to accept that greater effect if it's more than you want.

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I see what you mean. I'd call that an "explosion" rather than an Area spell. Area spells affect every hex in them equally, like Magic's Create Fire. An explosion doesn't pay for the size of the area it might affect (that is, a radius equal to the dice of damage); it just pays for the base damage, times that 1.5x multiplier for being an explosion.

Well.. every spell by "vanilla" magic, works like an explosion. And i've just re-watch. The damage diminishes 3 times per meter from center, like explosive fireball. Maybe i missed something here, but when we played, i used some HR to fix it, because "area spells" are very FP intensive, and they are kinda weak.

If you use "power as spells", then it's another thread.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The biggest difference to me between MoS and a skill penalty is flavor. MoS is random, varying from cast to cast of the same spell by the same mage in the same conditions. This feel can be good for settings where magic is supposed to be chaotic and unpredictable, less good of a match for those settings where magic is a carefully studied and formulaic craft.

Ye, i agree with this vision. Indeed, i would opt to use skill penalty instead of MoS. And, as @dataweaver suggested, using FP to empower parameter, after skill penalty. I like it a lot, and, more important, mixes two aspect, both important, flavour-wise: skill of the mage, and raw power.

[dataweaver]

There are benefits and drawbacks to both energy cost and skill penalty. In the case of Duration, I prefer energy cost because you can keep the effect going as long as you have the resources to maintain it, whereas the skill penalty and MoS approaches build in a deadline, after which point you have to recast the spell.

If you want, you could still have a dual system here where your choice of skill penalty determines how long a maintenance period is, and at the end of the maintenance period you get to spend energy to refresh the spell. It wouldn't work the same way as with other Parameters, though.

And that's part of the point: skill penalty, energy cost, and MoS are not merely one-for-one trades, where 1 FP=-1 skill, etc. They operate on different paradigms.

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

There are benefits and drawbacks to both energy cost and skill penalty. In the case of Duration, I prefer energy cost because you can keep the effect going as long as you have the resources to maintain it, whereas the skill penalty and MoS approaches build in a deadline, after which point you have to recast the spell.

If you want, you could still have a dual system here where your choice of skill penalty determines how long a maintenance period is, and at the end of the maintenance period you get to spend energy to refresh the spell. It wouldn't work the same way as with other Parameters, though.

And that's part of the point: skill penalty, energy cost, and MoS are not merely one-for-one trades, where 1 FP=-1 skill, etc. They operate on different paradigms.

nice points. Expecially the last part. But at page 183 of Thaumatology there are the charts. I would use them. Just applying some tweaks to make skill penalty and FP works togheter.

Duration, agree, should work FP based. But the others? I'm quite inclined to let skill penalties dictates the result (and then applying FP to further enlarge the result). It works expecially good with damage: by RAW, it's 1d of damage, plus another 1d for every -3 to skill. With a -6, it's 3d of damage. Guessing a Realm level of 3 or 4, for 6 or 8 FP, you can double the damage.
If i didn't miss nothing

[dataweaver]

Skill penalty and energy cost can be combined for damage fairly easily: accept an additional die if damage for every -3 penalty, then double the energy cost to double the number of dice; triple it to triple the number of dice; and so on. It's similar logic to what I described before for energy and MoS where Area is concerned.

I'd also consider looking a bit more closely at the Realm levels. As you point out, the higher the Realm level that's required to perform an Effect, the more expensive the effect and the longer it takes to cast. Set aside the usual hierarchy of kinds of effects for a moment: the level that a given Effect is assigned to should correspond to how expensive and time-consuming you think it ought to be to use it. In practical terms, that's more important than whether a given Effect counts as detecting, controlling, mastering, etc. Indeed, this can be thought of as the reasoning behind the hierarchy: detection and measurement Effects are listed as level 1 because it's rarely problematic for them to be cast quickly and cheaply; literally making a mountain out of a molehill should be level 6 because you don't want just anyone attempting it, but also because doing so ought to have lengthy casting times and massive energy costs.

How expensive do you think a fireball should be? Use that as a guideline for how many levels you need to create a fireball.

That said, another consideration would be to say that excessive Realm levels reinforce lower-level Effects: say, each level you have above and beyond what you need to perform a given Effect gives you Parameter benefits equivalent to -3 worth of skill penalties. So if fireballs are a level 2 Effect and you have 4 levels, you get up to two additional dice of damage (the equivalent of a -6 penalty) for having up to two additional levels. This is supposed to represent how much more powerful you are, so I wouldn't require you to cast it as a level 4 spell (that is, 6 seconds and 8 energy); just level 2 (4 seconds and 4 energy).

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Skill penalty and energy cost can be combined for damage fairly easily: accept an additional die if damage for every -3 penalty, then double the energy cost to double the number of dice; triple it to triple the number of dice; and so on. It's similar logic to what I described before for energy and MoS where Area is concerned.

I'd also consider looking a bit more closely at the Realm levels. As you point out, the higher the Realm level that's required to perform an Effect, the more expensive the effect and the longer it takes to cast. Set aside the usual hierarchy of kinds of effects for a moment: the level that a given Effect is assigned to should correspond to how expensive and time-consuming you think it ought to be to use it. In practical terms, that's more important than whether a given Effect counts as detecting, controlling, mastering, etc. Indeed, this can be thought of as the reasoning behind the hierarchy: detection and measurement Effects are listed as level 1 because it's rarely problematic for them to be cast quickly and cheaply; literally making a mountain out of a molehill should be level 6 because you don't want just anyone attempting it, but also because doing so ought to have lengthy casting times and massive energy costs.

How expensive do you think a fireball should be? Use that as a guideline for how many levels you need to create a fireball.

That said, another consideration would be to say that excessive Realm levels reinforce lower-level Effects: say, each level you have above and beyond what you need to perform a given Effect gives you Parameter benefits equivalent to -3 worth of skill penalties. So if fireballs are a level 2 Effect and you have 4 levels, you get up to two additional dice of damage (the equivalent of a -6 penalty) for having up to two additional levels. This is supposed to represent how much more powerful you are, so I wouldn't require you to cast it as a level 4 spell (that is, 6 seconds and 8 energy); just level 2 (4 seconds and 4 energy).

You're a wise man :)
Well, your point are more than solid. My greatest fear is to have things going wild when a character reaches a realm's level of 4 (in theory, have to decide yet, but level 5 and 6, or only 6, are accessible to gods).
Doing some theorycrafting, level 4, are 3d damage (assuming what you said about having hiher level than minimum to do an effect). I assume that a level 16-18 for that realm skill is average at that point, even because, i crafted my world in 13 realms of magics, warrens, if you prefer. And each level would cost not too much: by RAW, 5 points, but 10, IMHO, would fit more.

At that point, with an average of 20-25 FP avaiable (both FP and ER), a mage could cast a fireball (or something like it) with a reasonable -6. That means 5d for 8 FP, or 10d for 16 FP.

We can argue that a mage with 4 level in a particular realms has reached the greatest point for a human being, and 10d is a reasonable damage, comparable to the vanilla magic. But for 24 FP, he can unleash 15d damage. Tough one. Do you find it reasonable?

And without considering what you said about lowering the FP in order to cast a spell at lower level (because in that case, the base FP would be 2, and double damage for 4.. way too cheap, isn't it?)