Simultaneous attacks vs Dodge and Drop

[Erling]

Andy and Bob are sitting inside a room. They both chose Wait maneuver: they'll shoot Charlie as soon as he enters the room. Charlie enters. Andy and Bob shoot. Charlie uses Dodge and Drop and succeeds, falling behind a wall.

Say, Andy rolled first and succeeded, but Charlie's active defense was successful as well, and now Charlie's behind a wall. Will wall (as a cover) affect Bob's attack roll and/or visibility?

On one hand, rules say "any cover you drop behind does not count against the initial attack that inspired the dodge and drop, but is effective against subsequent attacks directed at you".

On the other hand, common sense tells me that since Andy and Bob attacked simultaneously, wall will become and obstacle only after they'll both shoot. Also I'd apply +3 bonus from Dodge and Drop to Charlie's Dodge attempts against both attacks.

What would be your ruling?

[VariousRen]

Originally Posted by Erling

Andy and Bob are sitting inside a room. They both chose Wait maneuver: they'll shoot Charlie as soon as he enters the room. Charlie enters. Andy and Bob shoot. Charlie uses Dodge and Drop and succeeds, falling behind a wall.

Say, Andy rolled first and succeeded, but Charlie's active defense was successful as well, and now Charlie's behind a wall. Will wall (as a cover) affect Bob's attack roll and/or visibility?

On one hand, rules say "any cover you drop behind does not count against the initial attack that inspired the dodge and drop, but is effective against subsequent attacks directed at you".

On the other hand, common sense tells me that since Andy and Bob attacked simultaneously, wall will become and obstacle only after they'll both shoot. Also I'd apply +3 bonus from Dodge and Drop to Charlie's Dodge attempts against both attacks.

What would be your ruling?

I see two reasonable rulings you could make:

A) Attacks are always resolved in some order. Resolve Andy and Bob in order of DX, Speed, Skill, or some other reasonable stat as long as you're consistent with it. If Andy shoots first and Charlie drops, Bob may have his shot ruined.

B) Attacks are sometimes resolved at the same time. If Andy and Bob fire at the same time Charlie has to decide if he's dodge-dropping both or neither of them. He claims the +3 to his defenses against both, but doesn't gain the difficulty to hit against either.

My group has tended to play with option B. This has also applied to situations like rapid attacks (retreats apply to all, injury applies only after the attacks are all resolved, etc.) and squads attacking while they are formed up with Teamwork.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Erling

On the other hand, common sense tells me that since Andy and Bob attacked simultaneously, wall will become and obstacle only after they'll both shoot. Also I'd apply +3 bonus from Dodge and Drop to Charlie's Dodge attempts against both attacks.

That's my gut instinct. However...


I might also resolve this in 'initiative order'. All three roll initiative, and those 'actions and responses' happen in that order. So if Charlie was actually faster than either two, he might dive back behind cover before the other two could fire, and thus I'd give him the cover bonus versus both. Maybe. It would depend on how cinematic of a campaign I was running.

[zoncxs]

If Andy and Bob have the same skill level, same DX, same basic speed, then they happen at the same time, apply the dodge to both.

If any of the above is different, then one at a time.

[Rupert]

I would rule that the 'wait' actions occur in order of Speed, as they would in the normal combat sequence. If the Andy and Bob have the same Speed (and in my games, the same DX and both have or don't have Combat Reflexes), and their attacks occurr together, Charlie gets to choose one to get his 'retreat' +3 against, but rolls to dodge both, getting actual cover against neither.

[Anaraxes]

B390 says to treat two attackers using Opportunity Fire as simultaneous.

MA108, in "Cascading Waits", specifically lists "More than one person with a Wait wishes to affect the same target" as a case where the rule applies, and says to break such ties by using a Quick Contest of the two shooters against the score governing their triggered action (in this case, shooting, so their Gun skills). Waits are resolved in decrease MoS order.

[Erling]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

B390 says to treat two attackers using Opportunity Fire as simultaneous

Good point!

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

MA108, in "Cascading Waits", specifically lists "More than one person with a Wait wishes to affect the same target" as a case where the rule applies, and says to break such ties by using a Quick Contest of the two shooters against the score governing their triggered action (in this case, shooting, so their Gun skills). Waits are resolved in decrease MoS order.

I suppose that Quick Contest doesn't really make sense in this case, since Andy and Bob are on the same team. It doesn't matter which one will shoot first. My main difficulty is whether the wall will hide Charlie after the first attack roll or after the second attack roll.

[Anthony]

I'd agree with giving the dodge and drop bonus against both attacks and cover against neither.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Erling

It doesn't matter which one will shoot first.

In many cases, no doubt, so you could pick an order with any method you like. Even with Andy and Bob on the same team, though, the order might sometimes matter -- what if Andy has an elephant gun and Bob a pea shooter?

My main difficulty is whether the wall will hide Charlie after the first attack roll or after the second attack roll.

RAW goes both ways, so it's up to you.

Adding complexity is the fact that characters don't really Dodge individual bullets after they're been fired. Despite the Basic rule, it's not as though the target has to actually get hit by the first bullet, and then reacting to the pain or the report, Dodges behind the wall in time to avoid the second bullet in flight. It's logically possible that the success of the Dodge roll just means the target noticed the ambush just in time to drop behind the wall while the ambushers have their own reaction time to the appearance of their target. So, the cover bonus could apply to both simultaneous attacks on a successful Dodge and Drop, rather than one and not the other -- or neither, if the one Dodge roll fails.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

That's my gut instinct. However...


I might also resolve this in 'initiative order'. All three roll initiative, and those 'actions and responses' happen in that order. So if Charlie was actually faster than either two, he might dive back behind cover before the other two could fire, and thus I'd give him the cover bonus versus both. Maybe. It would depend on how cinematic of a campaign I was running.

I think that's what I'd do