In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

[Matthias Wasser]

I always perceived the Shedim resonance (and Demonic resonances in general, other than Djinn and Lilim, which are kind of wonky) as persuasive in nature; note that persuasion in general (Fast-Talk, Seduction) is accomplished with Will. I like that the Kyriokate resonance is more invasive, and I also like Jason's suggestion, which perhaps despite his intentions preserves that - the setting probably makes more sense if there are arbitrary restrictions on whom Dominations can dominate, and switching them to Perception is just a gimme (even if nothing else is changed.)

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

I always perceived the Shedim resonance (and Demonic resonances in general, other than Djinn and Lilim, which are kind of wonky) as persuasive in nature; note that persuasion in general (Fast-Talk, Seduction) is accomplished with Will. I like that the Kyriokate resonance is more invasive, and I also like Jason's suggestion, which perhaps despite his intentions preserves that - the setting probably makes more sense if there are arbitrary restrictions on whom Dominations can dominate, and switching them to Perception is just a gimme (even if nothing else is changed.)

Ah. Do you follow the optional rules in the GMG for cutting back on Demonic resonances? I sort of like them too.

Malphas, for example, is incredibly abusive as far as free will goes.

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by JCD

Ah. Do you follow the optional rules in the GMG for cutting back on Demonic resonances? I sort of like them too.

Malphas, for example, is incredibly abusive as far as free will goes.

I like the Impudite and Lilim changes (but would not apply the change to Bright Lilim.) The Habbalah and Shedite changes were how I already interpreted canon, with the caveat that the distinction is somewhat meaningless when applied to NPCs. Balseraphs are fine as is.

I don't think libertarian free will is a coherent concept, even if demons wish it were, so it doesn't really bother me that demons can get guaranteed or near-guaranteed results with their resonance; something is persuasive in nature by virtue of the pathways it goes by, not by its chances of success.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Jason

Another way to handle the Kyriotate resonance, which I think came up in some thread or house rules website or something: Check digit of successful roll determines how much information you get about the hosts's long and short term hopes and intentions, so you ALWAYS have something to help you keep the host out of trouble. (And the duration of possession is a flat value based on Celestial Forces or somesuch.)

It's in the APG, pp 55-56. By taking a penalty to their roll, Kyrios can get some degree of information about the target, based on CD.

[Archangel Beth]

http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata/angelic.html says...

Originally Posted by APG Errata

Kyriotate Check Digit Results (Special Use at -4 Penalty): Remove this check digit table, as it impinges on the Choir Attunement of Kyriotates of Yves. Replace the table with the text:

Kyriotates, upon first possessing a host, may make a Perception roll at -4 to grasp at the most recent, strong memories. The GM may give a bonus for a particularly intense goal, such as "Drive my pregnant wife to the hospital in time." The check digit gives the relative detail - a check digit of 1 might yield a feeling that there was something family-related that the host intended to do. A check digit of 6 could uncover that the host must pick up her child at the bus stop, because the child does not have a house key.

GMs may also make a secret Perception roll, again at -4, if the Kyriotate is confronted with something that the host would have a strong emotional reaction to: family, enemies, a phobia, a drug the host is addicted to, etc. Perceptive Kyriotates are very good at reading the cues of their hosts; the brief flashes of emotion that they get also give them something else to talk about with Elohim.

Note that the Host Scarf in the Liber Reliquarum accesses the deleted table; Kyriotates who possess the Host Scarf may still use this table! (The Liber Reliquarum's errata will be updated when the Angelic Player's Guide (first edition) goes out of print, or sooner.)

[Dalillama]

Oops; hadn't seen the latest updates to the Errata there.

[ISNorden]

Most of the suggestions and corrections posted here are OK by me--in fact, I'd like to be able to design human characters who are neither pathetically weak nor ridiculously overpowered using the IN core rules. Of course, I was a little disappointed to hear that the Third Side idea got the axe; I think making it an optional campaign-style section in the back of the EPG would be a reasonable compromise, similar to the "different approaches to Superior X" options in the Superiors books. That way, people who want Ethereals' role to be minor or nonexistent can just use the other books as written...and people who want Ethereals to feel less like an afterthought can run a game that gives them a substantial part in the War.

[Azel]

I may be weird but I'm fine w/ d666 functionality. It's essentially a 2d6 system with a d6 randomizer. And 2d6 roughly means a 10% increment system with a saddle point around 7 (2d6 has only 2 through 12, therefore 10 possibilities, thus any point increase is 10%. Instead of a d10 where any of 1~10 is equally possible, 2d6 leaves 7 with the most combinations, thus a saddlepoint,).

Throw in Risk and Difficulty Mods then you are left with reasonable control over Check Digit & Target Number. Besides, if the randomness doesn't work well at that storytelling moment, all you have to do as a GM is ignore it (Routine Sunday driving to church w/ a successful CD of 6? You get to church on time, with a parking spot near the door, and that's it.). I find not over-thinking the CD helps; it's flavor, not a separate GM messing with you.

I will say that HP issues can be ameliorated by using the alternate Body Hit rules in the GMG. Going from (Corp For + Toughness/Vessel) x Str = Body HP, to Forces + Corp For + 5x(Toughness/Vessel) = Body HP, helps things a lot. First off, it makes buying up a vessel actually relevant to low Corp Forces characters. It also makes humans more than glass jaw wonders.

And about combat slogs and swords over guns... There was a topic previously where I agreed bullets should do more damage. But I felt giving guns more damage (via rate of fire) still favored swords over guns because of disturbance. I'm fine with swords over guns because with disturbance worries (and Dominic and Asmodeus looming) swords *should* take precedence because it is far more discreet. I actually like this -- it makes thematic sense. It also makes humans with guns scary and annoying; celestials will want to get into close combat instead of firing back because of "noise issues."

I do think that Human Routine Actions and Human Extra Skill Points should be elevated into core rules. However, if you do change to alternate Body HP, and alternate gun rules, there might be a good argument to leave RA & HESP as alternate rules. At that point it's a GM thing.

[Matthias Wasser]

Well, you don't want to use, like, an Uzi or anything that will smash up scenery like that, but the thing about a sword is that it's conspicuous (and ridiculous) even if you don't put it to use. Besides, that way leads to trenchcoats.

I'd rather humans and Celestials not be balanced against each other.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

Well, you don't want to use, like, an Uzi or anything that will smash up scenery like that, but the thing about a sword is that it's conspicuous (and ridiculous) even if you don't put it to use. Besides, that way leads to trenchcoats.

I'd rather humans and Celestials not be balanced against each other.

Mmm. IsNorden loses Third Side. I lose easier Celestial combat. Less crunchy humans isn't that big a loss. Just going by majority rule. It's easy enough to adjust back. Most people don't want humans to be dead with one punch...and have Celestials survive a million punches.

I'm not sure what Azel means about guns being more disturbing. Misses?