Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by The Benj

Mere anoraks are loosed upon the world...

Of course. It was just an example among many others.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You can punch people with a fist load at DX and it adds +2 to normal punching damage (raising it to thr).

Yes. You can take what you want in your hand to increase punching damage. But if the tool you take is not really designed for such an attack (brass knuckles, Okinawan teko...), the GM is also free to give you a penalty for clumsiness.

Did you read the old solo adventure All in a Night's Work, in GURPS Basic Set, 3rd edition? It explained that you could use a heavy stove as a mace, but with a -2 penalty. As a GM, I would give the character such a penalty for using a gun or anything else like that to punche.

Note: brass knuckles (and even teko, if I remember well – I don't have my books at hand) only give +1 to punch damage. Are you sure that a fist load gives a +2?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Where is that rule?

Martial Arts p 226 says that Yarawa use the same stats as Brass Knuckles, which can be used for DX at thr.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Note: brass knuckles (and even teko, if I remember well – I don't have my books at hand) only give +1 to punch damage. Are you sure that a fist load gives a +2?

No, punches do thr-1 not thr-2 as I mistakenly remembered.

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No, punches do thr-1 not thr-2 as I mistakenly remembered.

I think they may have been -2 back in 3rd Ed.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by fifiste

I'm thinking of removing the - you can hit people at DX with you use brawling at default (easy skill = DX -4), it'll mean that untrained people will have to throw telegraphic or all-out punches which seems appropriate.
And they won't be so surprisingly better at punching vs. swinging a small stick.

Also it'll mean that grabbing a hatchet or lead pipe is not crippling yourself for an average untrained guy/gal trying to defend themselves from ninjas/zombies/psycho killers.
Which does seem to me to goes against any conventional wisdom and definitely against the logic of many stories I'd like to tell.

I don't have anything against this house rule. But there is still one think that makes me prefer using DX as a default for punches and DX-2 for kicks: hit location modifiers.

When someone untrained punches, he usually aims at the face, which implies a -5 penalty. So, our untrained character already has to use a telegraphic all-out attack to have a fair chance to hit his target. Likewise, when someone kicks, he usually aims at the groin or something like that, which also implies a penalty... Swinging kicks in the ribs or punch in torso are most often used by trained warriors, who know how to hurt that way.

When you use a weapon, like a sword, an axe, or a club, aiming at a specific target is much less important. No matter where the blow lands, it will hurt a lot.

So, as you can see, punching the face or kicking the groin already has a penalty which already makes them default to about DX-4... or worse! Making the punch default to DX-4 would make the punch in the face default to DX-9... That is why, in my humble opinion, GURPS authors chose DX rather than DX-4 for the punch.

And I do agree with Sir Pudding. Animals have instinctive defenses and attacks: that's part of how life protects itself... I don't see any reason why humans would not have these instincts. What someone can do when his life is really threatened is usually amazing.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No, punches do thr-1 not thr-2 as I mistakenly remembered.

Yes, I know that. But your sentence “You can punch people with a fist load at DX and it adds +2 to normal punching damage (raising it to thr).” just confused me...

No problem with that, though. The main point is that it becomes clear for everyone.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by The Benj

I think they may have been -2 back in 3rd Ed.

The problem may come from the fact that thrusting damage, for an average character, is 1d-1. Which means that punching damage is 1d-2...

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Gollum

The problem may come from the fact that thrusting damage, for an average character, is 1d-1. Which means that punching damage is 1d-2...

Thrust for a ST 10 person is 1d-2, so a punch is 1d-3.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I don't have anything against this house rule. But there is still one think that makes me prefer using DX as a default for punches and DX-2 for kicks: hit location modifiers.

I tend to think the hit location penalties are too high. Here is a post where Kromm explains the reasoning behind the penalties, and I find myself disagreeing with some of the reasoning there, which I believe results in hit location penalties that are too high.

The problem you're pointing out applies even to skilled fighters. The first armor developed was for the head, to protect against clubs. I think, depending on the weapon, most hit locations are much easier for people to hit than they are in GURPS.

Like the free DX-level combat ability, and the cheap Combat Reflexes and HT, I think the large hit location penalties are another part of the system that serve the purpose of increasing the player characters' survivability. Which might make sense for Hollywood action games, but doesn't really work for my low-tech games where I strive for realism or in my horror games where I don't want character survivability. And they do have an impact on the weapon skills people need. I picture a soldier with skill 10 or 11 with his club as being a fearsome combatant on the battlefield, one you'd desperately want a helmet against, but that's not the case in GURPS.