09-27-2010, 03:20 PM | #31 | ||
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
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09-27-2010, 03:25 PM | #32 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Western MA
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
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What changing the range REALLY does is to still allow celestials to be amazing at what they do (through higher stat bases), but allows mortals to be competent at what they do. Right now a mortal can really only be good at something by (a) being hyper specialized or (b) by using optional rules. And the line between being terrible and competent is less sharp with a bigger range. Obviously the ranges (I suggest 10 stat base for humans; 13-14 for celestials) would need to be adjusted, as would the max level 6 in a skill, in order for things to work. |
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09-27-2010, 03:42 PM | #33 |
Petitioner: Word of IN Filk
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Longmont, CO
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
You too, huh? I wonder how many of us actually use that penalty?
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“It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking” --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor Author: "What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger" |
09-27-2010, 06:59 PM | #34 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Corporeal Realm
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
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09-28-2010, 03:28 AM | #35 | |
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Life imitates art--I'm in Pohang
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
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Now I'm not numerate enough to do this off the top of my head, but generally when you change the scale and not the randomizer you've changed the odds of success, often more dramatically than you intended to. Someone would have to do the math. literally, for this to work. I like a high degree of randomness in a game, as knowing an action will always succeed tends to make cocky players. If you have to roll for success, there should always be a tangible possibility of failure. You don't roll to walk down the street, after all. And Keep. The. Check Digit. Talk about a delicious bit of randomness--sure you've got the stats to succeed 49/50 times, but even then you can't guarantee it isn't merely a fizzling success. Or maybe you fail 49/50, but once in awhile you totally rock the house. Or as a Marine once said to me--"Yes, but is he lucky?"
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09-28-2010, 05:48 AM | #36 | |
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
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09-28-2010, 05:36 PM | #37 |
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston, MA
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
Organized in roughly descending order of what I think most needs to be addressed...
Reorganizing the Book I haven't seen GURPS In Nomine in person, but the ToC online looks like a huge improvement. The intro page on The Symphony is a nice addition, and doing a separate section on "the Realms" (now with Limbo!) seems wise. It seems a little strange to me to separate Skills/Advantages from Songs/Artifacts, rather than grouping together in a larger Resources section, but perhaps this is a quirk of the GURPs rules. One of the major problems with the original IN Core Rules wasn't that there was a Resources section, but that there were two. I wonder if this kind of replicates the issue without actually using "Resources" as a heading in two places as IN Core did. Also, "On Being Celestial" is something of a misnomer when it's describing not just resonance and dissonance, but things like using Essence, perceiving disturbance, and even combat. (Maybe "Playing in the Symphony" is a generic catch-all? But now I'm picking nits with what seems to be a good solution...) Organizing Information Across the Line I actually don't mind buying supplements to get more specific rules on geases or Fate/Destiny examples. I thought the Core Rules gave enough to go on for such things. The only piece of info I've seen in a supplement that I thought really needed to be in the Core Rules is the explanation of Limbo (which I notice is in GURPS In Nomine, so good job there). That said, I do kind of resent paying for a full book and finding that a good portion of its content is in another book I own. If In Nomine were to get a second edition, nothing would please me more than to see the material in each book being basically mutually exclusive so that when you buy a supplement on The Marches, you don't get pages upon pages on stuff covered even better in Superiors 3. Detecting Disturbance The fact that this is so frequently house ruled -- and that there are sets of optional rules in the GMG -- should probably indicate that the default rules for detecting disturbance simply don't work. It's not really practical to calculate a different range of detection for each character in a group based on their respective Perception scores. Personally, I'd suggest a very simple scale, like: If you are within [notes of disturbance] yards, you get a Perception roll + [notes of disturbance] to detect it … but practically any other house rule I've seen would be better. Character Creation Basics Yes, the first vessel should be free, and attunements probably ought to be cheaper at character creation (maybe all for 5 points, Choir and Servitor alike?). Five points per Force seems a bit much to me, but some kind of bonus does seem appropriate, perhaps along the lines of the bonus points Asmodeans get for Roles. (Say, Blandine always gives some bonus points for Marches-related skills, Michael always gives some bonus points for combat skills or Songs, mortals always start with extra bonus points for mundane skills, and so on.) d666 I see the rolling of 3 dice, with potential for 111 and 666 interventions, to be crucial to In Nomine. I really like the check digit, but I see it as less crucial. I do think the probabilities are screwy due to rolling 2d6 for target numbers, but I don't know of an easy way to fix that, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if In Nomine 2.0 left the d666 as is. Still, I see it as problematic that investing points to raise a target number from 9-12 is pretty much pointless, but putting points to raise a target above 12 is extra-super valuable. (Perhaps raising any characteristic, skill, or song to a level where it would push any known target number above 12 should cost twice as many points?) I don't quite follow the suggestion of rolling against 3d6, but I'd like to. If anybody's interested in kicking around more specific ideas, maybe we could do a separate thread proposing variants for just the issue of d666 with better probabilities, so that we don't get too waylaid here..? Combat I don't mind that it's hard to get killed in celestial form. I wouldn't mind if it were easier to shear off Forces. (Actually, I think most combat takes too long, and would be in favor of just making everything do more damage.) I think maybe it should also be easier to force a celestial/ethereal out of a vessel, using some non-secret Song (but extremely loud, disturbance-wise) in the Core Rules. As for unconsciousness, it's actually pretty hard to intentionally knock somebody out without doing permanent damage or killing them, so I don't mind the rule as is. I think it's awesome that, unlike D&D, Songs and powers in In Nomine have a wide variety of uses, not just boiling down to how useful they are in a fight. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing one or two more Songs with a bit more guaranteed kick for higher base Essence cost and degree of disturbance. A separate book expanding on combat rules would be neat. Actually, I'd buy that for In Nomine 1.0, in case other PDFs are ever in the works. Third Side Count me as one more against this for the Core Rules. It would be interesting to explore the possibility of a third side in greater detail in an Ethereal Player's Guide/The Marches redux, but it sounds a bit much for the basic game, which is really about Heaven and Hell. Grigori They're already mentioned in the Core Rules. Mentioning their resonance, dissonance condition, and the resonance/dissonance of Fallen Grigori is worth the extra paragraph(s). Superior Interaction I think the level of interaction with Superiors depends on the campaign, and I think that was more or less clear from the rules, but maybe Invocation Modifiers shouldn't be quite so generous. (The bonus from being in a Tether could be smaller, and the penalties for recency of last contact could be greater.) Fiction I like that there is fiction in the book. I wouldn't suggest adding any more or taking any away. I always send my new players to "A Bright Dream" and "A Dark Dream" on the SJ Games site to give them a sense of the game. Unfortunately, this did result in one player wanting to play a gun-toting Mercurian. Also, I would buy a well-written In Nomine novel, separate from the rule books. I frequently get the itch to write one, but, you know, nowhere to submit the manuscript until it's licensed to some fiction publisher... |
10-06-2010, 01:20 PM | #38 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
In G4e, Awareness(Symphony) becomes Detect(Disturbance) {Very Common (in this setting): base 30 points, Vague -50%, Power Modifier: Celestial -10%} Net 12 points.
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10-06-2010, 02:33 PM | #39 |
Untitled
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: between keyboard and chair
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
Except that Awareness (Symphony) also detected things other than Disturbance. (Artifacts and Tethers come to mind immediately...)
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Rob Kelk “Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.” – Bernard Baruch, Deming (New Mexico) Headlight, 6 January 1950 No longer reading these forums regularly. |
10-07-2010, 04:28 PM | #40 |
In Nomine Line Editor
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH
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Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?
Detect (Symphonic Anomalies)? O:>
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--Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related) |
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