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Old 05-19-2013, 02:22 AM   #41
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Skull and Spine DR - shouldn't these scale?

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Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
Vicky:
How do you get to negative DR?
Using my original suggestion creatures <<SM-3 are all DR 0.
You also said to use the Fibonacci sequence. ^_^
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:26 AM   #42
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Default Re: Skull and Spine DR - shouldn't these scale?

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
I know it goes against the GURPS standard which sets human average as the baseline, but I would almost kind of be happier if humans had to pay for their skull and spinal protection (it would fit more with the other GURPS idea of being generic); I mean, to build a race that has a head but a thin, fleshy skull you'd have to have Reduced DR 2 (Partial, Skull), which I'm not sure is RAW legal (negative or reduced DR, I mean).
Well, the whole idea of hit locations is one gaping hole in Gurp's G. I've tried coming up with something that treats hit locations as disadvantages, but I never did get it worked out. I can tell you there is a reason it wasn't done by the gurp's designers: It needs to be backwards-compatible, and Injury tolerance is REALLY cheap compared to say.... Gadget limitations on similar senses.
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:53 AM   #43
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Default Re: Skull and Spine DR - shouldn't these scale?

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Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
Tbone: can you give me a ref for the ST and size scaling?, I can't find it in the basic set... ta.
I'm glad you ask that, because... I'd like to see a ref too. : )

In my little fan-made supplement on designing and gaming odd-sized creatures ( http://www.gamesdiner.com/sites/game...GURPS_4e_0.pdf ) , I use that scaling method as the rule of thumb for setting size-dependent ST: take human-like ST, and multiply it by Height Multiple (my word for SM-determined multiple of 2-yard human height, e.g., SM+4 = 10 yards = 5x Height Multiple).

But under "What's official?" on the second page, where I clarify what bits of my supplement are GURPS RAW and what bits are my own suspicious additions, I note: "...multiplying ST by Height Multiple is only implied in Basic Set, with support from Bio-Tech and Fantasy."

As far as I can tell, that's true: hints that ST should be scaled with size as above, and even little examples of such, are scattered throughout GURPS in big books, minor supplements, forum threads, etc. (Sorry, I don't have page numbers or links on hand; check out any and all writings that touch on big/small races or bioengineered beings, shrinking/growth powers, etc.)

But if there's a clear Basic Set prescription for "this is the rule of thumb for setting size-dependent ST", I keep missing it. (If anyone knows a clear reference, please point it out!)

So. The above method of setting ST is easy, realistic, plays well, and seems to be the rule of thumb in GURPS, but I don't know whether 4e comes out and states it clearly. Meanwhile, I don't recall seeing any clear hint in GURPS that DR should scale with size in the same manner, but that too is easy, realistic, and (IMO) plays well; maybe it's even popped up somewhere in some book. Anyone know?
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Last edited by tbone; 05-19-2013 at 07:06 AM. Reason: Oops. Wrote SM+6 in example, where I should have written SM+4.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:21 AM   #44
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Default Re: Skull and Spine DR - shouldn't these scale?

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
In my little fan-made supplement on designing and gaming odd-sized creatures ( http://www.gamesdiner.com/sites/game...GURPS_4e_0.pdf ) , I use that scaling method as the rule of thumb for setting size-dependent ST: take human-like ST, and multiply it by Height Multiple (my word for SM-determined multiple of 2-yard human height, e.g., SM+4 = 10 yards = 5x Height Multiple).
Using humans as a base you're not going to get very realistic animal STs, after all, homo sapiens are well known for being the weakest of the apes, amongst which pound for pound you can't get much weaker, ST wise, than humans.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:33 AM   #45
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Default Re: Skull and Spine DR - shouldn't these scale?

Elephants, like humans, are actually a bit of a bad choice for trying to benchmark how DR from skulls should work. We're both extreme disproportionately big headed animals, but humans have fragile infantile skulls and elephants haveload bearing skulls. They don't strictly head-butt in the same sense as a horned animal, but an elephants primary manipulators (both brute-force tusks and fine-motor-but-still-strong trunk) are attached to its head in ways that require reinforcement up the front of the head, and it fights using both.

The trunk is rooted more or less in smack in the middle of the skull, with the muscle attachment points going up and over - and thus needing more bone strength to support. The tusks roots go deep up into the cheeks as well, although I don't know if they actually wrap around the braincase quite the same way. However, everything around and back from the roots of the tusks needs to be reinforced so that when the elephant uses them to rip up trees by the roots or crush rhinos (true story) the tusks are firmly supported.

It's really quite hard to shoot an elephant in the top of the head, for obvious reasons. They may have a significantly weaker skull on the top and back but it's kind of irrelevant in most cases.

Poachers have been using helicopters more lately, but that might be as much for "the elephants can't reach us and we can escape quickly" as for getting a good shot.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:57 AM   #46
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Default Re: Skull and Spine DR - shouldn't these scale?

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Using humans as a base you're not going to get very realistic animal STs, after all, homo sapiens are well known for being the weakest of the apes, amongst which pound for pound you can't get much weaker, ST wise, than humans.
I'm only talking about adjusting ST for size, not ST differences among species.

If a given ape is n times as strong as a human, then scale them both up by some factor, and the giant ape will be n times as strong as the giant human.

Or if a given ape has ST X at SM Y, then follow the scaling procedure above and you'll get a good estimate of the ape's ST if it were scaled to SM Z.

And so on. It all works. : )
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