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Old 04-13-2019, 10:06 AM   #11
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

There ought to be an online or PDF index that is updated with every book.
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:42 PM   #12
Charles G.
 
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
ITL suggests (and it is entirely logical) that there are many other causes of Fatigue. However, the only non-spellcasting references (to either "fatigue" or "exhaustion") that I can find are:
  • "Recovery from Exhaustion" [ITL 9] — "running too far too fast" and "trying some great feat of strength" are both mentioned, but no details are given
  • "Glossary and Definitions" [ITL 11] — "exertion" is mentioned, but no details are given
  • "Drain Strength" [ITL 24] — being targeted by the spell, -5 ST
  • "Weight Carried" [ITL 65] — carrying (15xST) lbs. of weight, -1 ST every 2 minutes
  • "Running" [ITL 70] — running up stairs, or climbing a shaft very fast, -1 ST
  • "Tunneling" [ITL 71] — digging at double rate with no break, -4 ST per hour
  • "Actions During Movement" [ITL 104] — failing the roll to pull yourself up while suspended over a pit, -1 ST
  • "Berserking" [ITL 124] — coming down from a berserker rage, -2 ST

Am I missing anything? Or is that really all that is officially specified on the subject?
The above is a pretty comprehensive list of what is official. What I think is missing that ought to be there are the following:

1) Fatigue caused by combat. (as a veteran SCA member, I'm very surprised Steve didn't pick up on this obvious one. Fighting in full armor, even while not running, ain't for sissies)
2) Fatigue cause by moving quickly (which is sort of touched on by Running on ITL70, but I'm thinking more about tactical sprinting in combat)
3) Fatigue caused by overland movement (route marching soldiers in full gear is a good example; also need to consider travel on horseback and the need for spare mounts)

None of this need be complex or overly wordy, but their really ought to be a (mostly) universal set of official, not house-ruled, guidelines for all of this.
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

The problem is, rules breed like tribbles. In actual fact every single thing that is done by anyone uses energy and fatigues them to some extent. Detailed fatigue rules could add pages that would constantly need be referenced and totally subvert play of the game. The more detailed the rules the worse it would be since detailed rules would imply that anything not included is considered free of causing fatigue.

The best approach is what has already been done. Scatter examples of things that cause fatigue through the rules so people get a feel for what the GM may want to apply a penalty to. That is all that is needed. If, as GM you tell your players that as a result of their 30 mile forced march the day before and failure to find any food for last nights supper as well as nothing for breakfast, that everyone starts the day with 3 fatigue hits against them everyone should understand that. If one of your players tells you that isn't in the rules and you cant do that, they need be gently counseled on the concept of a GMed game.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

oldwolf:

It does not require multiple pages to add a few simple lines like "A character loses 1 ST (as Fatigue) every X turns they continue to fight without rest" and "…every Y turns they continue to run" and "…every Z days of forced marching". It can be exactly that simple, just a guide to establish a practical baseline.

It would be a better guideline than failing to pull yourself out of a pit, at least. And it would provide some numbers to go with the otherwise undefined examples that ITL itself makes. Citing specific activities (like "running too far too fast") and not giving any numbers for them is just teasing.

Is that clarification "needed"…? Well, evidently you think it isn't — but respectfully, I think it is. So I shall continue to chew on that withered old bone until somebody gives me a nice fresh bacon-flavored rawhide to replace it.
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:08 PM   #15
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
oldwolf:

It does not require multiple pages to add a few simple lines like "A character loses 1 ST (as Fatigue) every X turns they continue to fight without rest" and "…every Y turns they continue to run" and "…every Z days of forced marching". It can be exactly that simple, just a guide to establish a practical baseline.

It would be a better guideline than failing to pull yourself out of a pit, at least. And it would provide some numbers to go with the otherwise undefined examples that ITL itself makes. Citing specific activities (like "running too far too fast") and not giving any numbers for them is just teasing.

Is that clarification "needed"…? Well, evidently you think it isn't — but respectfully, I think it is. So I shall continue to chew on that withered old bone until somebody gives me a nice fresh bacon-flavored rawhide to replace it.
The problem with a "simple" rule like you suggest is massively increased bookkeeping. I don't want to be tracking Fatigue lost through exertion during a combat, especially with multiple figures involved. This changes the game more than I'm interested in.

I would like all the notes and guidelines about Fatigue combined in one place for ease of reference so that, as a GM, I can use them "if I want to and if it serves the story." It's a button I'll press every now and again for effect but I don't want it on all the time. That's a different game entirely.
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:58 PM   #16
Charles G.
 
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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Originally Posted by oldwolf View Post
The problem is, rules breed like tribbles. In actual fact every single thing that is done by anyone uses energy and fatigues them to some extent. Detailed fatigue rules could add pages that would constantly need be referenced and totally subvert play of the game. The more detailed the rules the worse it would be since detailed rules would imply that anything not included is considered free of causing fatigue.

The best approach is what has already been done. Scatter examples of things that cause fatigue through the rules so people get a feel for what the GM may want to apply a penalty to. That is all that is needed. If, as GM you tell your players that as a result of their 30 mile forced march the day before and failure to find any food for last nights supper as well as nothing for breakfast, that everyone starts the day with 3 fatigue hits against them everyone should understand that. If one of your players tells you that isn't in the rules and you cant do that, they need be gently counseled on the concept of a GMed game.
In very large measure disagree. Adding three very obvious, very relevant examples to a very short list (of which half were very narrow and not at all universally relevant) hardly qualifies as "breed[ing] like tribbles"; nor does it pave the way to detailing everything that might cause fatigue. Do you seriously think that anyone, myself most of all, are proposing a set of dozens (or hundreds) of pages of rules merely to figure out how much fatigue ST cost I will endure when I get up in the morning and grab a cup of coffee? Please. There are not enough "pharmaceuticals" in all of Cali and Colorado combined to get me anywhere near to understanding that POV.

And the "best approach" (whatever that may be) certainly has not been done. Of the several examples given, the only relevant ones pertain to shifting very heavy weights, running up stairs, and trying to pull yourself out of a pit (as opposed to coming out of berserkergang, being hit by a Drain ST spell, or tunneling/mining, which are not common adventuring activities). Even the more relevant ones are not the most common sorts of things one might do in a given active day or adventure. I'd say fatigue due to combat would hands down be number one, followed by moving at full MA either in pursuit or being pursued, and finally forced marches overland, whether for the players or any mounts they might be using. Might also add a rule for folks who are encumbered by armor, gear, or both to be able to move at full MA but suffer some sort of fatigue cost.

There. That's all that's needed. Not thousands of pages of tribble multiplying rules. If it takes more than a third of a page you're not doing it right. Hardly an imposition.

Nor should stuff be "scattered through the rules" - it should be in one place where it can easily be referenced and, as necessary, extrapolated. Having to flip through several pages in different sections of the document is... unwise. And that is the most charitable term I can find for it.
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Old 04-16-2019, 04:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
The problem with a "simple" rule like you suggest is massively increased bookkeeping. I don't want to be tracking Fatigue lost through exertion during a combat, especially with multiple figures involved. This changes the game more than I'm interested in.

I would like all the notes and guidelines about Fatigue combined in one place for ease of reference so that, as a GM, I can use them "if I want to and if it serves the story." It's a button I'll press every now and again for effect but I don't want it on all the time. That's a different game entirely.
Not an unreasonable concern, but it need not be a big deal to keep track of. For combat, actual melee in particular, I'd only assign the penalty at the end of the battle, and just presume that adrenaline keeps you going during the fight, but you need time to recover afterwards (for missile weapon users and mages it'd be more of a judgement call on the GMs part - i.e. if you're just spanning an arbalest on a castle wall and lobbing a bolt every few turns I don't think you'll be exhausted even after a couple hours, but if you're running around with a bow and changing shooting positions frequently that would be a different matter). No biggie, and it shouldn't be a significant increase in bookkeeping - certainly easier than keeping track of wizards' spell casting.

(Parenthetically I do understand your view if you are taking it as "keep track of every round while fighting and assigning fatigue penalties every X turns as warranted - in that case you'd be right, but that is not what I would suggest)
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Old 04-16-2019, 05:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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Originally Posted by Charles G. View Post
… (Parenthetically I do understand your view if you are taking it as "keep track of every round while fighting and assigning fatigue penalties every X turns as warranted - in that case you'd be right, but that is not what I would suggest)
I agree, micromanaging Fatigue is not on my Xmas List either. I have no desire to track it all the time, because it almost never matters — I'd just like some rules for those rare times when it does matter.

To be perfectly technical, it wouldn't even be a 'New Rule' — because ITL has a rule for Fatigue, as well as references to non-spellcasting activities that cause it. So it's not like I'm asking for something that isn't already there. I would be quite content with just having some specific numbers given for those otherwise unhelpfully vague examples.

And I categorically reject the notion that a few extra (relevant) numbers would — or even could — ruin the whole game.

In any event, it would still be a judgement call for the GM. Everything always is.

Last edited by FireHorse; 04-16-2019 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of GURPS-like tracking of encumbrances and whatnot, but if one of my players is taking that giant golden bathtub along on his back on the way back to town, and they get ambushed by some Orcs, he just might be too pooped to fight, ya know? And that's about all the level of detail I want or need for TFT, I think. Of course, others may feel very differently!
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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… if one of my players is taking that giant golden bathtub along on his back on the way back to town, and they get ambushed by some Orcs, he just might be too pooped to fight, ya know? …
Oh, yes, I know exactly what you mean. It's odd how Karma works like that.

But when you (as GM) decide to inflict Karma on the greedy little munchkins, you need the Gods on your side. For example, if one of your players is new and brings a character in from another GM's table, and while looking over his sheet you discover that he is (allegedly) carrying nearly a quarter million gold pieces on his person… you need a rule about Encumbrance to put him down without a fight.

Or (to cite another actual example) suppose your players think they're terribly clever for buying a wagon to carry all their loot — because they figured out that selling all the equipment they strip off the corpses of their victims could easily add up to more money than the total coinage they'd found. And then suppose they decided that, as long as they had the wagon anyway, they'd also plunder the statuary and even the furniture from the temple of the Death God.

Obviously, it should come as no surprise that the wagon throws a wheel while they're heavily loaded and fleeing the vengeful Death Cultists. But they will accept their fate much more readily (or with a bit less argument, anyway) if you can point to a Rule — say, their lack of Wagoneering skill — as the reason for the mishap, rather than admitting that it's just the GM's personal sense of Justice. :)
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