Product concept: Dungeon Fantasy adaptation guides for famous adventures

[sjmdw45]

There are a lot of well-regarded adventures for various game systems in the world: Against The Giants and Tomb of Horrors for AD&D, Barrowmaze for OSR (LL, B/X, others), and even some WotC adventures like Rime of the Frost Maiden aren't too bad.

On the theory that what makes a truly great adventure typically has little to do with the ruleset being used, but that having a module already written in your ruleset is a great convenience for a GM...

If there were for example an eight-page booklet on converting monsters, traps, and treasures in Against The Giants or Ascent of the Leviathan to DFRPG's ruleset, would you pay $8 for it? I would.

I mean, I'm basically cobbling that info together anyway based on simple rules of thumb about treasure conversion rates and patterns observed in DF Monsters. E.g. giant amobecytes in the gargantuan jellyfish's body in Ascent of the Leviathan should clearly be able to regrow crippled/severed pseudopods as a free action, and they're probably homogeneous. This being DF, balance matters less than verisimilitude so any reasonable conversion of their ST/DX/HT is probably fine, but they are smaller than human sized so anywhere between ST 8 and ST 15 is probably fine. Could even roll their ST randomly per amobecyte as 3d6, but if someone wrote ST 11 I'd shrug and use it.

I'd gladly pay someone else to do the same work, indexed by page number. (Or if anyone else wants to use my conversion I'd gladly post my notes on github, a blog and/or this forum.)

Is publishing DFRPG conversions for famous adventures a thing? If so where do I find it?

P.S. I figure there's a lot more RPG players out there who have some emotional attachment to Against The Giants or Rime of the Frost Maiden or Curse of Strahd than there are people who are already playing DFRPG.

P.P.S. Bundle that conversion guide with Delvers To Go/Delvers To Grow/some other party of pregens, and you've got a complete onboarding package to DFRPG. Just add the DFRPG boxed set and give it to a Dungeon Master!

[Dalin]

I don't know about the copyright issues here, but in terms of the value of the product, I might add one more layer: a section (or series of sidebars) that highlights ways to adjust things to play to the strengths of DFRPG. Or that just provides advice on tactical considerations. There are a lot of differences between the HP ablation model of D&D and the hit location/damage type/DR mix in DFRPG. Considering the differences in the magic systems would be helpful too.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Dalin

I don't know about the copyright issues here.

The copyright issue here is "that sure looks like a derivative product that requires permission of the copyright holder". So basically a nonstarter.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The copyright issue here is "that sure looks like a derivative product that requires permission of the copyright holder". So basically a nonstarter.

That expansive view would make essentially all Internet RPG forums illegal. I do not think that commentary on a book, while avoiding all copyrighted material, constitutes a derived work.

If I write, "on page 58 of Tomb of Annihilation, for the statue of a man riding a mastodon, use a Stone Golem (Monsters pg 54) with SZ +4 and ST 60. Try to Overrun the PCs (Exploits pg 40) to do damage and get a chance at rear attacks," I do not think that's a derivative work under copyright law of Exploits, Monsters, or Tomb of Annihilation. If it is we are all in heaps of trouble.

I believe derivative works must include some copyrighted material to be considered derivative works. If SJG wants to correct me, I'll hear it, but otherwise I do not think that would prevent someone from selling me their notes on how to adapt an adventure to DFRPG.

Originally Posted by Dalin

I don't know about the copyright issues here, but in terms of the value of the product, I might add one more layer: a section (or series of sidebars) that highlights ways to adjust things to play to the strengths of DFRPG. Or that just provides advice on tactical considerations. There are a lot of differences between the HP ablation model of D&D and the hit location/damage type/DR mix in DFRPG. Considering the differences in the magic systems would be helpful too.

Yeah, that would be valuable too. "Page 94, if you want to be cruel, have half the stirges attack the eyes on round 1... while the other half hide in the east wall and wait until round 2 to attack the players' vitals from behind!" (Note to self: use this.)

I'm interested in Barrowmaze for example because it has a good reputation for its map and encounter key, but if someone wants to give advice on 99 neat complications to inject using DFRPG swimming rules, encumbrance rules, lighting rules, etc., I am all ears.

[ravenfish]

In general, copyright law is vague enough that any even slightly debatable issue pertaining to it is resolved on the principal of "the side that can afford the best lawyers wins".

On the other hand, Douglas Cole's Nordlond Bestiary, third party but compatible with the DFRPG and released with SJGames' blessing, includes a good spread of monsters that, while legally distinct, bear striking similarities to monsters in a certain other game, and it comes with a handy conversion table, so it might be worth checking out as a start (indeed, its diverse spread of monsters is worth checking out regardless).

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

On the other hand, Douglas Cole's Nordlond Bestiary, third party but compatible with the DFRPG and released with SJGames' blessing, includes a good spread of monsters that, while legally distinct, bear striking similarities to monsters in a certain other game, and it comes with a handy conversion table, so it might be worth checking out as a start (indeed, its diverse spread of monsters is worth checking out regardless).

Yeah, that's one of the things that inspired my thinking on this issue.

I don't think it's even slightly debatable though that my writing "on page 58 of Tomb of Annihilation, for the statue of a man riding a mastodon, use a Stone Golem (Monsters pg 54) with SZ +4 and ST 60. Try to Overrun the PCs (Exploits pg 40) to do damage and get a chance at rear attacks," is not a violation of copyright. Nothing in that sentence is copyrighted (except implicitly by me). This is why The Monsters Know What They're Doing can get published, and have multiple sequels. Writing about someone else's game text is not a violation of their copyright.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

In general, copyright law is vague enough that any even slightly debatable issue pertaining to it is resolved on the principal of "the side that can afford the best lawyers wins".

On the other hand, Douglas Cole's Nordlond Bestiary, third party but compatible with the DFRPG and released with SJGames' blessing, includes a good spread of monsters that, while legally distinct, bear striking similarities to monsters in a certain other game, and it comes with a handy conversion table, so it might be worth checking out as a start (indeed, its diverse spread of monsters is worth checking out regardless).

Even WotC only lays formal claim to certain critters that they consider proprietary. The ones on my own list of By Any Other Name are all very much not that.

In fact, they're far less that than The Eye of Death is to that which beauty is in the eye of.

[Anthony]

There's plenty of things you can do with monsters with their serial numbers filed off, the problem comes when you actually identify the product (though on reflection, the issue may be more trademark than copyright).

I would also note that paying attention to what will and won't fly on internet discussion boards is not indicative of what will and won't fly when you try to actually publish and market something.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Yeah, that's one of the things that inspired my thinking on this issue.

I don't think it's even slightly debatable though that my writing "on page 58 of Tomb of Annihilation, for the statue of a man riding a mastodon, use a Stone Golem (Monsters pg 54) with SZ +4 and ST 60. Try to Overrun the PCs (Exploits pg 40) to do damage and get a chance at rear attacks," is not a violation of copyright. Nothing in that sentence is copyrighted (except implicitly by me).

What is legally forbidden and what a corporation can make your life very unpleasant for doing are often only distantly related (see, for example, Warner Chapell Music shaking people down for using Happy Birthday despite there being no dispute over the fact that the song was first published decades before the actual laws would permit it to be copyrighted, or the publisher of Harry Potter threatening to sue anyone who managed to read one before the official release date, despite there being no law or precedent to forbid a person from reading a legally-obtained book without the publisher's permission). It is no longer considered the done thing to bribe judges, but other ways have been developed to insure that "justice" heavily favors the rich.

[sjmdw45]

One final point:

Even if it turns out that no one wants to take the legal risk of publishing their notes on how to run Against the Giants or Tomb of Horrors in DFRPG, there are still potential synergies with OSR adventures, the authors of whom are mostly amateurs who might be more open to collaboration. Malrex's adventure Ascent of the Leviathan (review at https://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=8254) is a good adventure that I'm eager to run; it's published in D&D 5E, OSRIC, and OSE already.

I sure wish Malrex had a DFRPG version published (or even just a blog post on how to convert from OSRIC!) so that I didn't have to do the work myself. Maybe Malrex, or Greg Gillespie (of Barrowmaze fame), would be more open to explicitly okaying conversion notes than WotC presumably is.