New Reality Seeds

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Ransom

I almost think a quick win for the Union in the US Civil War just means you get another one a generation or so later, since slavery doesn't end and without years of bitter war the north lacks the will to utterly dismantle the institutions that made secession possible.

By this point in history I think slavery is pretty well done for - it's probably doomed fairly shortly even if the South *wins*. Notice that it's already been abolished in half of Latin America in the previous 15 years when the US Civil War starts, and is in almost all the rest in the following 15. Southern slave owners were not irrational to be afraid abolition was coming. A quick end to the war one way or the other might mean there is hope they'll get a phase out or some degree of financial compensation though.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by malloyd

By this point in history I think slavery is pretty well done for - it's probably doomed fairly shortly even if the South *wins*. Notice that it's already been abolished in half of Latin America in the previous 15 years when the US Civil War starts, and is in almost all the rest in the following 15. Southern slave owners were not irrational to be afraid abolition was coming. A quick end to the war one way or the other might mean there is hope they'll get a phase out or some degree of financial compensation though.

Assuming that because it was being abolished elsewhere that means that it would be quickly abolished in the United States is like assuming that North Korean Communism couldn't last for long after the fall of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact and the Chinese free market reforms. The Southern states were very entrenched on the subject and the mechanics of changing the American Constitution even when everyone is on board are much more grueling than the process by which other nations could abolish slavery.

[Pomphis]

And the CSA constitution carefully protected slavery:

Article I Section 9(4)No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.[14]

Article IV Section 2(1)The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.[32]

Article IV Section 3(3)The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several states; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form states to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory, the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress, and by the territorial government: and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories, shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the states or territories of the Confederate states.[33]

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Assuming that because it was being abolished elsewhere that means that it would be quickly abolished in the United States is like assuming that North Korean Communism couldn't last for long after the fall of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pace and the Chinese free market reforms. The Southern states were very entrenched on the subject and the mechanics of changing the American Constitution even when everyone is on board are much more grueling than the process by which other nations could abolish slavery.

Plenty of other states had land holding classes that were quite entrenched on the issue too. They folded to outside pressure (and/or internal revolution) eventually. We're used to the United States being a superpower, but at the time it isn't, especially if the Civil War is short. It isn't going to hold out against the civilized world forever. Even the CSA abided by conventions against the slave trade after all. North Korean Communism would probably fold pretty quickly too if China stopped supporting it.

[Pomphis]

Saudi-Arabia abolished slavery in 1962, Oman in 1970, Mauritania in 1981.

None of them were superpowers, and Saudi-Arabia got rich only after WW2.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Plenty of other states had land holding classes that were quite entrenched on the issue too. They folded to outside pressure (and/or internal revolution) eventually. t.

"Eventually" doesn't mean anything. Everything ends eventually. While it's unlikely that a quick and easy suppression of the rebellion would lead to the world of Underground Airlines, where slavery was still present in the United States of the 21st century it's also unlikely that slavery would have been abolished quickly and peacefully. An interesting time to visit it might, say be the 1930s as the final push for abolition is starting but is endangered by communist agitation for a slave uprising.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Try this idea. I'm taking it from a posting I made on another thread. Serpent people from a reality outside of the quantum known to Homeline and Centrum, break into a Q4 parallel strongly similar to Homeline in the year 1895.

These Serpent People bring plauges and fell beasts to crush humanity. However, like Well's Martians, the Serpent People get a microbial surprise. They fail at conqest but shatter both the Earth's governments and their own.

It is now the year 1957.The world has experienced warming and the seas are rising, sea level is up 25 feet. Sea level is raising about four feet every ten years at this time. The present population is around 300 million. The world is a steampunk post-apocalyptic world of magic and steam tech. Conan and Krull meet After London and Things to Come, both the middle sequence with the Boss and the Everytown as underground supercity parts.

More later...

It's later. Europe is trashed, it's the main area the Serpent People came in through. Most of Africa and Latin America are too hot for humans to live in. China is also infested with Serpent folk.

India is doing fairly Well. One of Victoria's grand daughters made it there an was declared Empress. Her son, the King/Emperor, married a prominent Maharani, and his son has done the same. Most of the remaining Europeans are marrying high caste Hinds. Christ is now seen as an Avatar of Vishnu, as are St. Francis, St George, and St. Joan. St Paul, John the Baptist, St. Patrick, and Henry VIII, are Avatars of Shiva. Moses and Elizabeth Tudor are counted as Avatars of Brahma.

Giving that Conan is in many ways a cowboy projected into an imagined barbarian past, it fits this world that the Old West has moved north, climate change, and six guns and sorcery is a common flavor of much of this world's North America. Pirates and revived Indian nations also thrive. TL6+1^ cities thrive behind their walls and other defenses.

Tech is influenced by Serpent Rune Magic. Airships (can you have an Alternate history without airships?) use Runic enchantments and function as TL6+3 airships. The use of Fire Runes to boil water dominates power generation.

Sea travel is deadly because of mysterious vast beasts brought by the Serpent Folks. Thus intercontinental travel is by airship. Trains, steamboats, wagons, ect are still around, but mass manufacture is rare.

The core skill that Magic works off of in this reality is Rune Lore-VH. The Runes cover Twelve Roads, Entropy/Luck, Correspondence/Space, Time, Life, Forces, Matter, Mind, Spirit, Quintessence, Society, Information,, and Fate/Purpose. Mages generally chose to identify with a deity to gain a deeper understanding of magic and thus greater power. The deities available to Western Mages are Astrological ones, the Sun, Mercury, Venus, the Moon, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, Minerva( the seventh planet got a different name in this parallel), and Neptune (they haven't discovered Pluto). Such identification can lead to transformation. High level initiates often are more like their deities than their former selves. Example, all Mages that identify with Venus end up as fertile beautiful women even if they were born men.

Each level of identification with a deity adds to Magery and other talents. Fifth level initiates of Venus have plus five to all medical, artistic, and social skills as well as Plus five to Magery. The fifth level initiate of Mars is plus five to all combat (Martial) skills. There are ten levels of initiation. High level initiates are called on for far more than their magic skills.


More later.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by fchase8

So does that world, the one where almost everyone was wiped out, connect to this world, where the virus was eventually handled? How does Reich-5 access a Quantum Six world?

I believe the Chronobahn just goes through Quantum Three.

The world where the Black Fever crashed the population to a few millions, has several gates that lead to the Q6 world in play. But there aren't known limits on where the Chronbahn can go.

And, to be fair, the dialogue at the start of the section on Centrum in GURPS Infinite Worlds has a Centran agent liking the idea of teaming up with/supporting Nazis, just to mess with Infinity (though that appears to be Reich-2).

If Centrum thinks Nazis can get to them, they joyfully kill Nazis.

Perhaps the 'southern cone' of Chile, Argentina, and Uruguay hold off the Black Fever, while it wrecks everywhere north. But it still would be hard to keep the disease at bay, no matter how social-democratic.

The cooler climate would help. and they might be the Reich-5 stronghold you want.

The United States working with Mexico could not only reduce anti-Americanism in Mexico, but also anti-Mexicanism, anti-Hispanic racism in the U.S.

It a possibility.

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

If Centrum thinks Nazis can get to them, they joyfully kill Nazis.

True - Centrum wouldn't want to work with any crosstime organization, no matter how it might mess with Infinity. Maybe with individual swagmen, but any crosstime organization would be a rival in Centran thinking.

But I-Cops wouldn't be rational about how unlikely a Centrum-Reich team-up would be; it's just a nightmare for every I-Cop who knows about Raven Division.

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The cooler climate would help. and they might be the Reich-5 stronghold you want.

It's tough for Raven Division to operate that far afield, geographically. It's limited to operating in S.S. Burgundy on Reich-5, and the Chronobahn is in the Middle East.

Argentina could be a home to (homegrown) reactionary conservatives/fascists. Peron could take over at some point, maybe right after the Black Fever wave crested - then he would be leading one of the biggest powers in the post-Fever world of the 1950s.

[fchase8]

Quick victories in wars like American Civil War, WWI, WWII, etc. would require divergence well before the actual war.

The one exception would be Germany quickly beating France in WWI, or Britain abandoning France after its quick defeat in WWII (the divergence point of Reich-2).

And maybe American Revolutionary War - revolutions like that can be snuffed out in their infancies.