Magic systems on Yrth

[scc]

OK, in Banestorm you're only supposed to use the standard magical system in Basic, chapter 5, not even the Ritual or Clerical version exist, right? So why then did I find THIS gem on page 184:
Close to Heaven: Exorcism, Meditation, Religious Ritual, Ritual Magic, Symbol Drawing, and Theology. Reaction bonus: “religious professionals.” 5 points/level.

I now Ritual Magic and Symbol Drawing are both specialization skills, that is you HAVE to specialize when taking them, and each specialization goverens a different magic system. Ritual Magic has at least two, Ritual Magic (Magic System) and Path/Book Magic. Symbol Magic specialization each cover a different Symbol Magic system, with the two provided examples in Magic of The Futhark Runes and The Ogham Alphabet, Thuamatology provides at least another two, if less detailed.

So what gives, is this just a muck up by a writer or is there something deeper going on

[robkelk]

I believe those are in the Talent for people who want to use it in non-Banestorm settings.

[Refplace]

It could be but I would assume Ritual Magic as in the basic set.
Symbol Drawig can just be a complimentary type bonus and does not have to use another system.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by scc

OK, in Banestorm you're only supposed to use the standard magical system in Basic, chapter 5, not even the Ritual or Clerical version exist, right?

I'm not actually seeing a lot of support for that view in the text. Clerical mages don't appear to get any special dispensation for the Clerical Magic variant on Characters p. 242, but I think the relevant passages from p. 23 of Banestorm are:

While spell-based magic is the
most common type of supernatural
power on Yrth, it’s hardly the only one.

...which indicates that the plain vanilla magic system is predominant but not exclusive, and...

Magic on Yrth works as described
in the GURPS Basic Set, Chapter 5,
and in GURPS Magic.

...which conspicuously does not exclude the clerical and ritual magic variants in Chapter 5.

[korbeau]

Have in mind that Thaumatology was release in 2008 and Banestorm's release was 2005.

In Basic, Symbol Drawing (p. 224) have another use for what Thaumatology explain what this skill CAN do. I believe that in 2005, the autor didn't suspect that Symbol Drawing will become part of a bigger system.

If you don't want to be confuse, use only Basic, Magic and Banestorm and forget about all the rest... if you want to include them, just twist Yrth for becoming YOUR setting :)

[scc]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

I'm not actually seeing a lot of support for that view in the text. Clerical mages don't appear to get any special dispensation for the Clerical Magic variant on Characters p. 242, but I think the relevant passages from p. 23 of Banestorm are:



...which indicates that the plain vanilla magic system is predominant but not exclusive, and...



...which conspicuously does not exclude the clerical and ritual magic variants in Chapter 5.

I'm pretty sure I saw/read a Kromm post that said Banestorm/Yrth only has the stuff in Basic when people complained about some of the stuff in Magic breaking Banestorm.

Originally Posted by korbeau

Have in mind that Thaumatology was release in 2008 and Banestorm's release was 2005.

In Basic, Symbol Drawing (p. 224) have another use for what Thaumatology explain what this skill CAN do. I believe that in 2005, the autor didn't suspect that Symbol Drawing will become part of a bigger system.

If you don't want to be confuse, use only Basic, Magic and Banestorm and forget about all the rest... if you want to include them, just twist Yrth for becoming YOUR setting :)

The ability of Symbol Drawing to cast spells first came out in Magic, which obviously pre-dates Banestorm as the later refers to the former

[Anthony]

Syntactic magic and symbol magic (Futhark runes) both predate 4th edition GURPS by quite a bit, and 3rd edition was pretty unclear on exactly what available in Yrth, other than being specific that it did not include separate 'holy' magic. I don't know what would be up with ritual magic there, as it didn't exist as such in 3rd edition.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by scc

I'm pretty sure I saw/read a Kromm post that said Banestorm/Yrth only has the stuff in Basic when people complained about some of the stuff in Magic breaking Banestorm.

Ritual magic is in Basic, so that still wouldn't rule it out. I recall Kromm posting about stuff not known on Yrth, and that may very well have gone beyond the information in Banestorm, but my recollection is that he was addressing particular spells, not spellcasting variants.

ETA: This post and this one are the ones I'm thinking of. You, of course, may very well be thinking of something else.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Ritual magic is in Basic, so that still wouldn't rule it out. I recall Kromm posting about stuff not known on Yrth, and that may very well have gone beyond the information in Banestorm, but my recollection is that he was addressing particular spells, not spellcasting variants.

That makes things even WORSE, that makes this talent basically a half priced version of Magery for Ritual Magic

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

ETA: This post and this one are the ones I'm thinking of. You, of course, may very well be thinking of something else.

The second one was diffinatly what I was thinking of

[Kromm]

The existence of Ritual Magic and Symbol Drawing does not imply working magic.

The first two paragraphs of the Ritual Magic skill text can be summarized as "you recognize and understand the meaning of certain rituals when you witness them" and "you must specialize in a class of rituals." It isn't until the third paragraph that there's any explicit discussion of working magic – and even that is qualified with "In worlds with working ritual magic," which means that in worlds without working ritual magic, function ends at the bottom of paragraph 2 and you get a skill comparable to occult (rather than theological) Religious Ritual, or just a deep-and-focused version of Anthropology. Go ahead and bust it from IQ/VH to IQ/H if that bugs you.

Similarly, the second and third paragraphs of Symbol Drawing open with "In traditions where . . .," and go on to describe kinds of magic. However, plenty of traditions are neither of these, in which case none of this is true and only paragraph 1 applies – i.e., you know how to etch strange symbols. You get a mystical version of Artist (Calligraphy), in effect.

The point being that neither skill implies working magic. The skills nevertheless exist and are studied by exponents of ritual and symbolism even when their travails fail to produce magical outcomes. They can be background skills or professional requirements for fortune-tellers, occultists, priests, and other scholars of the esoteric in worlds where no magic of any kind exists for anyone. That might seem like a "waste of points" in such settings, but by that token, so is giving your PC Games or Sports skills, Hobby Skills, or even a background in Artist or Mathematics that you have no intention of ever using in play.