Would like some help with our group

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

One character is former military and strongman competitor (not winner or even top 10, but competitor). St 14, IQ 11, DX 11, HT 14, Will 11 now (was 14; lost dependent wife, lowered will to represent and compensate points), Lifting 14. Watching Born Strong on Netflix really gave us an idea into his pre-FBI routine, but we would like help figuring out where the modifiers for some of the events in this video (Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic) and Strongest Man competitions. The Lifting guidelines in the core book are a bit...vague. Where would this character have stood at that time? What would it take to do these events (BLx**+EE+Lifting skill as an example)? What could he have lifted? and how the heck can anyone 1 arm lift 300 lbs over their head....more than once by these rules?

By the rules ...

• Your character has ST 14 which gives him BL 39.
• He is probably skilled. Let's say Lifting (HT+2)-16. This skill gives him +5% x margin of success to BL. So, an average off +30%.
• His modified BL is 39 + 30% = 50.7

Here are his average feats:

• One-handed lift: 50.7 x 2 = 101.4 lbs (45.8 kg)
• Two-handed lift: 50.7 x 8 = 405.6 lbs (183.7 kg)

He could use Extra Effort to try to improve that. But it replaces the +5% bonus by +10% with a Will-based skill roll (a skill roll based on will rather than HT). So, since his Will is only 11, he won't be better. With Extra Effort, he only has one chance in two to get the +30%. Or one chance in four to get +50% which would give:

• One-handed lift: 50.7 x 2 = 117 lbs (53 kg)
• Two-handed lift: 50.7 x 8 = 468 lbs (212.3 kg)

Note that your character is quite good. GURPS two-handed lift roughly correspond to snatch* and here are the Olympic world records.

_____

*Once you lift the weight, you can throw it.

[Litvyak]

Originally Posted by Gollum

By the rules ...

• Your character has ST 14 which gives him BL 39.

They're using Knowing Your Own Strength, so he has BL 50.

[Jareth Valar]

Originally Posted by Gollum

By the rules ...

• Your character has ST 14 which gives him BL 39.
• He is probably skilled. Let's say Lifting (HT+2)-16. This skill gives him +5% x margin of success to BL. So, an average off +30%.
• His modified BL is 39 + 30% = 50.7

Here are his average feats:

• One-handed lift: 50.7 x 2 = 101.4 lbs (45.8 kg)
• Two-handed lift: 50.7 x 8 = 405.6 lbs (183.7 kg)

He could use Extra Effort to try to improve that. But it replaces the +5% bonus by +10% with a Will-based skill roll (a skill roll based on will rather than HT). So, since his Will is only 11, he won't be better. With Extra Effort, he only has one chance in two to get the +30%. Or one chance in four to get +50% which would give:

• One-handed lift: 50.7 x 2 = 117 lbs (53 kg)
• Two-handed lift: 50.7 x 8 = 468 lbs (212.3 kg)

Note that your character is quite good. GURPS two-handed lift roughly correspond to snatch* and here are the Olympic world records.

_____

*Once you lift the weight, you can throw it.

With the "Know Your Own Strength" he has a BL of 50, Will was 14 during his competition days, Lifting skill is 14 currently. So given the above calculations we can assume an average increase of 20% then with lift to a modified of BL 60?

Now my curiosity lies in what basic formulas would be used for the events though. Like the Dead Lift being BLx12?

What about the Austrian Oak? The Timber Carry?

ROGUE Elephant Bar Deadlift: "Rising bar deadlift with a minimum starting weight of 749 pounds. The event features the ROGUE Elephant Bar, which is much longer an a regulation Olympic bar. Competitors have 30 seconds per attempt. Event judged on weight."

Timber Carry: "Competitors will carry a wooden frame weighing approximately 1,140 pounds up a 35-foot ramp (10.7 meters). Event judged on time and distance. Straps are not allowed."

The Bag Over Bar: "Competitors will toss bags weighing approximately 50 pounds to more than 100 pounds over a 15-foot high bar. The bags are custom-made by ROGUE Fitness. Event judged on weight and number of times bag successfully tossed over bar."

Just some examples from the Arnold Strongman wiki:

Timber Carry - In this event, also known as the Farmer's Walk, contestants lift 865 lb (392.4 kg) barn timbers bolted together and have to travel, typically up a ramp, as a far as possible in 30 seconds.
Atlas Stones - Contestants have to lift round stones weighing sometimes over 500 lb over a bar approximately 48 inches high.
Apollon's Axle - This is a unique barbell made famous by turn-of-the-century strongman Louis "Apollon" Uni. Reproduced by Ivanko Barbell Company, the Axle is replica of the original, weighing 366 lbs, with the same bar thickness as the original. The bar is mechanically fastened to reproduction train wheels. Contestants must lift the wheels from the floor to overhead as many times as possible in two minutes.
Tire Deadlift - Contestants are required to lift a specially designed long bar weighted with tires. The Tire Deadlift bar was designed and manufactured by Ivanko Barbell Company and comprises a 13 ft. stainless steel bar and up to eight Hummer tires & rims. Additional calibrated barbell plates may be added. The beginning weight was approx. 750 lb at the 2008 event.
The Super Yoke - In 2008 contestants had to carry across their shoulders a bar/yoke weighing 1,116 pounds for approximately 36 feet (11 m) in a timed event.
The Circus Dumbbell - This is the classic "Circus" dumbbell, used by professional Strongmen from the early 20th century. Richard Sorin reproduced the dumbbell for this event.[8] It weighs 202 lb and has a very big handle over 3 inches (76 mm) in diameter. The requirement in 2008 was to use one hand at a time and lift the dumbbell overhead as many times as possible in 90 s..

[Jareth Valar]

Originally Posted by Litvyak

They're using Knowing Your Own Strength, so he has BL 50.

Ninja'd....Thanks. :D

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Litvyak

They're using Knowing Your Own Strength, so he has BL 50.

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

With the "Know Your Own Strength" he has a BL of 50, Will was 14 during his competition days, Lifting skill is 14 currently. So given the above calculations we can assume an average increase of 20% then with lift to a modified of BL 60?

Sorry, I didn't know that rule ...

Yes. BL 50 plus an average of margin of success of 4 gives a modified BL 60.

Which gives the following feats:

• One-handed lift: 60 x 2 = 120 lbs (54.4 kg)
• Two-handed lift: 60 x 8 = 480 lbs (217.7 kg)

Just note that it is almost the Olympic world record: Snatch, 220 kg, Lasha Talakhadze, Georgia, 5 December 2017, World Championships, United States, Anaheim, United States.

So, if you consider that your character can do that again and again without the least extra effort, he is probably the best Olympic weightlifter who ever existed.

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

Now my curiosity lies in what basic formulas would be used for the events though. Like the Dead Lift being BLx12?

I didn't know that formula. Where does it come from? - there is a lot of things I don't know.

It would lead to:

• Dead lift: 60 x 12 = 720 lbs (326.6 kg)

Lasha Talakhadze would probably return home, crying.

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

What about the Austrian Oak? The Timber Carry?

ROGUE Elephant Bar Deadlift: "Rising bar deadlift with a minimum starting weight of 749 pounds. The event features the ROGUE Elephant Bar, which is much longer an a regulation Olympic bar. Competitors have 30 seconds per attempt. Event judged on weight."

[...]

I don't know all these exercises but suppose that they don't require to be able to throw the object after lifting it ... And I don't know how to model them in GURPS terms. If I had to, I would probably remain very abstract: contest of ST-based Lifting rolls.

All what I wanted to point out is that your character is already better than the better of our real world. So, your GM is right, in my humble opinion. There is no need to have a higher ST than 14.

[Jareth Valar]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Sorry, I didn't know that rule ...

Yes. BL 50 plus an average of margin of success of 4 gives a modified BL 60.

Which gives the following feats:

• One-handed lift: 60 x 2 = 120 lbs (54.4 kg)
• Two-handed lift: 60 x 8 = 480 lbs (217.7 kg)

Just note that it is almost the Olympic world record: Snatch, 220 kg, Lasha Talakhadze, Georgia, 5 December 2017, World Championships, United States, Anaheim, United States.

So, if you consider that your character can do that again and again without the least extra effort, he is probably the best Olympic weightlifter who ever existed..

See, that's the the thing though. I really don't think the average MoS would be 4 though. True, there would be bonuses for equipment and the like and taking time possible and EE, but I personally think the stress of being in a competition environment, the attempt at a world record, and the attempts of others trying to erode your confidence would overshadow the bonuses gained. Watching the Documentary of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Pumping Iron (though not a lifting documentary, there is a similar mindset in many competition events) shows that he really tried to mess with their heads before the competition to throw the odds in his favor. I too have personally witnessed this when I was in MA tournaments. Just something to possibly conciser too. Not 100% though

Originally Posted by Gollum

I didn't know that formula. Where does it come from? - there is a lot of things I don't know.

It would lead to:
Dead lift: 60 x 12 = 720 lbs (326.6 kg)
Lasha Talakhadze would probably return home, crying.

It didn't come from anywhere but my head, hence the "?". I just threw out a formula to show that formulas are one of the things we were hoping for, if possible.

We don't know either. Most of what I know about this subject is from a couple of friends and documentaries. Also, relatively new to GURPS (played briefly over 3 decades ago and didn't pay much attention back then) so we brought our questions here.

Originally Posted by Gollum

I don't know all these exercises but suppose that they don't require to be able to throw the object after lifting it ... And I don't know how to model them in GURPS terms. If I had to, I would probably remain very abstract: contest of ST-based Lifting rolls.

All what I wanted to point out is that your character is already better than the better of our real world. So, your GM is right, in my humble opinion. There is no need to have a higher ST than 14.

Abstract is definitely an option, not a preferred one, but may have to settle.

As for your humble opinion, that's exactly what we are looking for. I've read several posts on ST/Lifting before posting this and have seem many posts (from you and several others) that make very valid points. There are several posters that I have grown to respect their opinion, even if I don't agree with all of them.

Thanks for participating, and hopefully something will come up.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

With the "Know Your Own Strength" he has a BL of 50, Will was 14 during his competition days, Lifting skill is 14 currently. So given the above calculations we can assume an average increase of 20% then with lift to a modified of BL 60?

Extra effort lifting is Will-based, so he's at skill-11, but each point of success is a 10% increase. He's probably better of not using extra effort, and getting a 20% boost.

ROGUE Elephant Bar Deadlift: "Rising bar deadlift with a minimum starting weight of 749 pounds. The event features the ROGUE Elephant Bar, which is much longer an a regulation Olympic bar. Competitors have 30 seconds per attempt. Event judged on weight."

30 seconds means you can make multiple attempts and take the best result. If each attempt takes 5 seconds (the same as a two-handed lift, plus one to evaluate your success), then you get 6 attempts and can expect to roll a 6 or less at least once. With extra effort Lifting, that's an MoS 5, for +50%, and an effective BL of 75 for a 900 lb deadlift. In his prime, he could hit Mos 8 and a 1080 lb deadlift.

Timber Carry: "Competitors will carry a wooden frame weighing approximately 1,140 pounds up a 35-foot ramp (10.7 meters).

The same MoS 5 will let you carry 1125 lbs at BLx15, at Move 1. He needs 6 tries get moving, and then he can totter up the ramp. He'd be lucky to make a few yards. During his competitions, he would have hit that in 40% of his attempts and could expect to make it most of the way up the ramp.

The Bag Over Bar: "Competitors will toss bags weighing approximately 50 pounds to more than 100 pounds over a 15-foot high bar.

This is complicated, but: he needs to throw the bag about 4 yards vertically, which works out to 8 yards horizontally. He can throw a 50 lb bag over the bar with little effort; the 100 lb bag requires a +50% on the Throwing extra effort roll so it basically isn't going to happen.

Timber Carry - In this event, also known as the Farmer's Walk, contestants lift 865 lb (392.4 kg) barn timbers bolted together and have to travel

Similar as the frame but much easier. He needs an effective BL of 110 to lift the timbers, and an effective BL of 60 to move with them.

Atlas Stones - Contestants have to lift round stones weighing sometimes over 500 lb over a bar approximately 48 inches high.

Two handed lift gives BLx8, so BL 65 will do - which is a MoS 3 on an extra effort Lifting roll. At his competition peak, he would have made more than 50% of his attempts.

The Axle is replica of the original, weighing 366 lbs, with the same bar thickness as the original. The bar is mechanically fastened to reproduction train wheels. Contestants must lift the wheels from the floor to overhead as many times as possible in two minutes.

How much do the wheels weigh? If the total is 400 lbs or less, he can do this without extra effort, roughly 30 times in 2 minutes. If he has to use extra effort, the math gets ugly.

The Super Yoke - In 2008 contestants had to carry across their shoulders a bar/yoke weighing 1,116 pounds for approximately 36 feet (11 m) in a timed event.

Requires a minimum of 13 available FP, plus any FP required on extra effort Lifting rolls to get started. Being Very Fit reduces that to a reasonable 7 FP plus extra effort, which averages 5 FP.

The Circus Dumbbell - It weighs 202 lb and has a very big handle over 3 inches (76 mm) in diameter. The requirement in 2008 was to use one hand at a time and lift the dumbbell overhead as many times as possible in 90 s..

A contestant with Lifting/Arm ST 17 and some skill in Lifting, could expect to do 30-40+ presses in 90 seconds. With ST 14, you're looking at Extra Effort lifting rolls at -11 to do a single rep. This is definitely an event that rewards specialization: you need MoS 0 at ST 18, MoS 1 at ST 17, MoS 3 at ST 16, MoS 7 at ST 15, and MoS 11 at ST 14.

[Jareth Valar]

Thank you Mark (may I refer to as such?), this is very helpful, much closer to what we are hoping for.

As for the Circus Dumbbell we will always need no less than MoS of 3 then (GM is capping all attributes at 15 or 16 with Unusual Background (Peak ST/DX/IQ/HT)[10], this also counts for all Advantages that modify (Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, High Manual Dexterity, etc.). She's only allowing 1 as far as I know, if even then.

As for the Super Yoke, he has FP 15 and Fit, GM didn't want Very anything at start (give us something to aspire/improve too) so this would be a tough one, but a worthy challenge for 13 FP, assuming he could get an MoS of 5 on EE that is.

See, that was the easy one. It's right there (and well described) in the Basic rules. BLx15 "Carry on Back" -1 FP/Sec if over BLx10. Simple and in B&W. The others not as much for us.

Thanks again.

[mlangsdorf]

I just went through Basic p353-357 and applied the rules. Only a couple of them were complicated, and those were either the throwing ones (because Throwing is complicated) or the repeated lift ones where he needs to hit a certain MoS repeatedly.

Even for the complicated ones, a very simple spreadsheet worked out the math. But generally I looked at the task, decided what type of lift it was, looked up the formula for maximum weight per BL, divided the target weight by the multiplier to get the target BL, and then figured out how much MoS he'd need to have that BL.

ie, for the dumbbell:
* it's a one-handed lift because they say it is
* one-handed lifts are 2xBL
* 202 lbs / 2 means you need BL 101 to perform it
* 101 / 50 - 100% means you need 102% increase in effective BL to perform it with BL 50 at ST 14.
* 102% is either MoS 11 on Lifting extra effort or MoS 21 on Lifting - so basically, it isn't happening.

But you can do that analysis for any of them, with just the table of BL from KYOS and Basic p353-357.

[Tomsdad]

OK for the various different lifts I agree with what was posted earlier most of them won't match up to the various BLx2 or BLx8 'lifts', so I think a better tactic is to give them their own multipliers and if you really want to get into modelling the nitty gritty of a Strong man competition have them as specialties of the lifting skill, possibly also with equipment bonuses (or even penalties for sets up that are designed to be harder e.g overly thick bars that interfere with grips)

EDIT: I see mlangsdorf has already look at how these lifts and events fit in with current GURPS lifts and throws!

Originally Posted by Gollum

Sorry, I didn't know that rule ...

.....

It would lead to:

• Dead lift: 60 x 12 = 720 lbs (326.6 kg)

Lasha Talakhadze would probably return home, crying.
....

Actually that's not a massive deadlift (in strongman terms) certainly within the realms of possibility for an olympic lifter I'd have thought even if deadlift isn't an Olympic lift.

the current world record deadlift is 1,100lbs


-----

On calculating lift's I maybe wrong, but I think something's been missed?

The original listing is a bit odd:

Originally Posted by Jareth Valar

...

One character is former military and strongman competitor (not winner or even top 10, but competitor). St 14, IQ 11, DX 11, HT 14, Will 11 now (was 14; lost dependent wife, lowered will to represent and compensate points), Lifting 14. ....

Lifting is a HT average skill, so if this chap has HT14 and lifting 14 then he's either got a +0 skill level in lifting, or there's a typo?

If it's the former than he's strong and fit but most certainly not an experienced lifter in terms of this level of competition having only spent 2cp on the skill, so despite having an excellent stat build for it no won't likely be doing as well as a dedicated lifter could or likely at the standard those event lifts are set at?.


Is it possible that it's meant to be HT14 +4 lifting effective skill = 18, (and so Will 11+4 = 15 for using extra effort)?

If that's so and combined with KYOS giving him a base BL of 50lbs

If he rolls an 11 on an ordinary lift test he'll get 7 MoS (+35%) so BL = 67.50lb

If he rolls an 11 on an EE Will based lift test he can take a -4 penalty and get +40% so BL = 70lbs

and if he rolled an 11 on an EE Will based lift test back when his will was 14 he could take a -7 penality and get +70% so BL = 85lbs


(I see he used to be an ex-competitor, are you saying his lifting skill has gone back to +0?)