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Old 02-01-2018, 03:48 AM   #21
GodBeastX
 
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Default Re: Improving contests via new rules

There is a lot of combat information missing in your dataplots. Some of it was mentioned by Sindri, but on the whole GURPS favors the defender for success. If you aren't seeing that in your gameplay then you are probably not using all the rules involved or there is a skill difference in characters.

Taking a boxer in your example and Martial Arts book, boxers can retreat, step to the side, and slip-in. These add to defenses. You can also make a Defensive Attack which adds to defense by lowering damage (Probing guarded attacks which we see a lot in boxing) as well as options for using fatigue in combat. If both boxers have equal skill it's quite easy to "Play it safe" and have neither side landing hits often.

I have tried the quick contest years ago and it made combat very strange. It just didn't work. It was a unanimous vote to get rid of it in the game I tried it in. I'm foggy on all the reasons, but I know hit locations was a big part of it.

Data plots tend to be a very inaccurate representation of GURPS combat without deep understanding. I have a player in my game who did a similar spreadsheet and came up with a "These are the best chances of winning a fight for damage with deceptive attacks and rapid strikes!"

Then he got destroyed when I used Feint against him.

Feint is the contested roll people look for when they ask "Why isn't it a contest"? You pit skill against skill, and feint is almost always the best option in combat even though people rarely use it (People like to try to put out damage).

A lot of people look at me funny when I say that but the reason Feint is good is it represents control of combat. What you tend to see without feint is a wild attempt at a Deceptive Attack the has low probability of succeeding to begin with.

With Feint you pretty much purchased a hole in someone's defense on a success. Now you got options to choose. "I know this enemy has -6 to his defense, so I can safely attack vitals which I wouldn't have done with the Deceptive attack, or even compound it with a deceptive attack."

But my point is GURPS is about options, and even more specifically it gives options to defenders which is what I personally love about the system. People can feel tactically challenged in a fight and never lose a single hit point.

There's a lot of probability in options and you can probably build decision trees and endless graphs, but when you have all the options turned on, most are rarely accurate compared to play.
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:08 AM   #22
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Default Re: Improving contests via new rules

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Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
There is a lot of combat information missing in your dataplots. Some of it was mentioned by Sindri, but on the whole GURPS favors the defender for success. If you aren't seeing that in your gameplay then you are probably not using all the rules involved or there is a skill difference in characters.

Taking a boxer in your example and Martial Arts book, boxers can retreat, step to the side, and slip-in. These add to defenses. You can also make a Defensive Attack which adds to defense by lowering damage (Probing guarded attacks which we see a lot in boxing) as well as options for using fatigue in combat. If both boxers have equal skill it's quite easy to "Play it safe" and have neither side landing hits often.

I have tried the quick contest years ago and it made combat very strange. It just didn't work. It was a unanimous vote to get rid of it in the game I tried it in. I'm foggy on all the reasons, but I know hit locations was a big part of it.

Data plots tend to be a very inaccurate representation of GURPS combat without deep understanding. I have a player in my game who did a similar spreadsheet and came up with a "These are the best chances of winning a fight for damage with deceptive attacks and rapid strikes!"

Then he got destroyed when I used Feint against him.

Feint is the contested roll people look for when they ask "Why isn't it a contest"? You pit skill against skill, and feint is almost always the best option in combat even though people rarely use it (People like to try to put out damage).

A lot of people look at me funny when I say that but the reason Feint is good is it represents control of combat. What you tend to see without feint is a wild attempt at a Deceptive Attack the has low probability of succeeding to begin with.

With Feint you pretty much purchased a hole in someone's defense on a success. Now you got options to choose. "I know this enemy has -6 to his defense, so I can safely attack vitals which I wouldn't have done with the Deceptive attack, or even compound it with a deceptive attack."

But my point is GURPS is about options, and even more specifically it gives options to defenders which is what I personally love about the system. People can feel tactically challenged in a fight and never lose a single hit point.

There's a lot of probability in options and you can probably build decision trees and endless graphs, but when you have all the options turned on, most are rarely accurate compared to play.
I absolutely agree with your point about GURPS combat being about the myriad interplay of options not data plots on sheets.

However due to that very point I do take issue with feint being almost always the best option ;-)!

The greatest Feint in the world won't help if in the meantime you get stabbed, and actually I'd say instead of controlling the combat you tend to give up control by functionally given your opponent two goes in a row to build on, and your locked into attacking next turn or losing the feint and thus wasting your previous turn!

Your example of putting a -6 penalty on someones defences via a feint would require you to wining the feint QS by 6! Now you could get that from lucky rolls from near equal Skills (although the closer you are to skill parity the greater the risk of wasting the feint attempt is). But more likely you are enjoying a hefty skill advantage. At which point it's really just a matter of choosing how you want to win barring some other mismatch in the other direction.


However as I said I think this all just goes to prove your general point to be even more true. It's all about the interplay of options! So for instance feint could be pretty good against oppoents who might not be the highest skilled in the world but did bring along a DB3 shield

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-01-2018 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:09 AM   #23
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Default Re: Improving contests via new rules

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I absolutely agree with your point about GURPS combat being about the myriad interplay of options not data plots on sheets.

However due to that very point I do take issue with feint being almost always the best option ;-)!

The greatest Feint in the world won't help if in the meantime you get stabbed, and actually I'd say instead of controlling the combat you tend to give up control by functionally given your opponent two goes in a row to build on, and your locked into attacking next turn or losing the feint and thus wasting your previous turn!

Your example of putting a -6 penalty on someones defences via a feint would require you to wining the feint QS by 6! Now you could get that from lucky rolls from near equal Skills (although the closer you are to skill parity the greater the risk of wasting the feint attempt is). But more likely you are enjoying a hefty skill advantage. At which point it's really just a matter of choosing how you want to win barring some other mismatch in the other direction.


However as I said I think this all just goes to prove your general point to be even more true. It's all about the interplay of options! So for instance feint could be pretty good against oppoents who might not be the highest skilled in the world but did bring along a DB3 shield
I don't want to turn it into a discussion about feint, but what I was trying to say about Feint is that you change behavior when it's successful which is why it becomes great. Usually when people are dealing with a high defense enemy they deceptive which is usually "I am just trying to hit this guy." When you could have feinted and sure, you can fail, but if you succeed, the payout tends to be bigger cuz you can go for harder attacks... vitals, neck, cripples, etc. This is the advantage of knowing before hand how well you messed up the enemy.

But yes, that was my point in that it IS an option, and with these options you change the flow of combat in ways that cannot be easily mapped. For example, what if I cut off both your hands? How does that change the flow of combat in datapoint models? What if you loose a foot because it's an extremity and you can no longer stand? What about moving around enemies and stealth to take advantage of "No Defense Possible" or "Run Around Attacks"? What about gambling it all on All-Out Attacks?

GURPS is the only system where I have people climbing over each other to play the Fighter =)
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:15 AM   #24
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Default Re: Improving contests via new rules

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Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
I don't want to turn it into a discussion about feint, but what I was trying to say about Feint is that you change behavior when it's successful which is why it becomes great. Usually when people are dealing with a high defense enemy they deceptive which is usually "I am just trying to hit this guy." When you could have feinted and sure, you can fail, but if you succeed, the payout tends to be bigger cuz you can go for harder attacks... vitals, neck, cripples, etc. This is the advantage of knowing before hand how well you messed up the enemy.

But yes, that was my point in that it IS an option, and with these options you change the flow of combat in ways that cannot be easily mapped. For example, what if I cut off bother you hands? How does that change the flow of combat in datapoint models? What if you loose a foot because it's an extremity and you can no longer stand? What about moving around enemies and stealth to take advantage of "No Defense POssible"? What about gambling it all on All-Out Attacks?

GURPS is the only system where I have people climbing over each other to play the Fighter =)
ha true enough!
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:02 AM   #25
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Default Re: Improving contests via new rules

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GURPS is the only system where I have people climbing over each other to play the Fighter =)
So true. Nowdays even my wizards are weapon masters in staff
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