[Powers] Stealing Attributes

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

No, sorry, I should have clarified that - Trigger is one of the limitations that has its own default duration (1 minute), so that's the duration of the attribute boost in the first build. In the second, as I said, it lasts for Affliction's usual duration with a beneficial effect, minutes equal to the margin of success on the HT roll.

ye, right because ST gained is from affliction that is clearly written the duration

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

It was good, if you want your ST to go up by 5 points and that's all, no matter how much you Leech.

Yes, it is exactly what i want!! :D

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I think you're misreading that build - it doesn't mention Affliction at all, it's using Toxic Innate Attack, which is a completely different advantage.

Yes, he used innate attack to to this, so i thought to use affliction to "steal Attribute". I am pretty sure that is legit by RAW. Am i missing something?

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Neither of the builds you presented initially are cumulative, I'm afraid. They both rely on the limited attribute construct, which, no matter how you modify it, will not stack with itself. If you buy ST +5, you can get ST 5 higher than your base ST, but you can't keep adding that on again and again, you haven't paid for that. That's why Refplace and I are suggesting the Affliction build, because that, as long as you have Cumulative on it, can keep adding to your ST indefinitely.

yes, maybe i didn t say it before, but i was not interested to go "over the top". Indeed my builds are done to have a maximum cap. I feel better as solution, both for balance game wise and "reality" for the PC.
But is good to know how to stack "endless" attribute only by using the cumulative enhancement.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Devil_Dante

Yes, he used innate attack to to this, so i thought to use affliction to "steal Attribute". I am pretty sure that is legit by RAW. Am i missing something?

Well, for one thing, I'm not sure why you have the Regeneration in the build - in the linked thread, Regeneration isn't a modifier for Innate Attack, it's a second advantage that's being purchased along with Innate Attack. In your Affliction build, it should be Regeneration, +1500% - Advantages, when added by Afflictions, cost 10X their point cost as enhancements. In any case, I don't know why you want to add Regeneration to the affliction build there anyway - is the idea that you both reduce someone's ST and give them the ability to heal very, very quickly? Finally, your Affliction will reduce someone's ST by 5, but that's it. You can't use it again to reduce their ST more, until the original Affliction result wears off. If you want to be able to use it again and again to keep reducing their ST, you will have to add Cumulative to that as well.

Originally Posted by Devil_Dante

yes, maybe i didn t say it before, but i was not interested to go "over the top". Indeed my builds are done to have a maximum cap.

Fair enough, and you're right, that's generally better balance.

Personally, I think I'd prefer to go with a build where the ST boost went up more slowly, limiting each level of ST so that it required progressively more Leech uses to rise to that level. So, something like:

Leech 3 (Accelerated Healing, +25%; Malediction 2, +150%; Ranged, +40%; Reliable 5, +25%; Steal ST, +100%) [150] + ST 1 (Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [7] + ST 1 (Accessibility, only after 2 successful leeches, -10%; Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [6] + ST 1 (Accessibility, only after 3 successful leeches, -20%; Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [5] + ST 1 (Accessibility, only after 4 successful leeches, -30%; Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [4] + ST 1 (Accessibility, only after 5 successful leeches, -40%; Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [3]

For a final total of 175.

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Well, for one thing, I'm not sure why you have the Regeneration in the build - in the linked thread, Regeneration isn't a modifier for Innate Attack, it's a second advantage that's being purchased along with Innate Attack. In your Affliction build, it should be Regeneration, +1500% - Advantages, when added by Afflictions, cost 10X their point cost as enhancements.

Oh my.. there was something wrong with the math.. was too cheap for the result indeed!! And no, was totally wrong: the regeneration should be activated on "me" when i steal ST. Thanks for had pointed!

Regeneration, very fast (Accessibility, only when leeched, -20%, Reduce heal to 5, -10%; Decrease duration 1/60, -35%;) Total = -65% [53]

When you deal ST damage via "affliction", you heal for 5 hp, but only for 1 second. The limitations should be right i hope

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Fair enough, and you're right, that's generally better balance.

Personally, I think I'd prefer to go with a build where the ST boost went up more slowly, limiting each level of ST so that it required progressively more Leech uses to rise to that level. So, something like:

Leech 3 (Accelerated Healing, +25%; Malediction 2, +150%; Ranged, +40%; Reliable 5, +25%; Steal ST, +100%) [150] + ST 1 (Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [7] + ST 1 (Accessibility, only after 2 successful leeches, -10%; Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [6] + ST 1 (Accessibility, only after 3 successful leeches, -20%; Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [5] + ST 1 (Accessibility, only after 4 successful leeches, -30%; Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [4] + ST 1 (Accessibility, only after 5 successful leeches, -40%; Trigger, Stolen ST, -30%) [3]

For a final total of 175.

I don't like the endless battery. I think they umbalance the game for every one.. the limitations are very important and i take care of them even if i only design some "builds" just for fun.

Thank you for your time by the way!

Edit : this scaling leeching effect is awesome! Thanks

[Refplace]

Yeah if you only want to cap at +5 I would drop Affliction and just go wth scaled ST, its cheaper.
The original poster who started this thread wanted to be able to give the ST to others and that needed Affliction.

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Yeah if you only want to cap at +5 I would drop Affliction and just go wth scaled ST, its cheaper.
The original poster who started this thread wanted to be able to give the ST to others and that needed Affliction.

Yes, after 3 pages i have finally understood it XD

Anyway, seems stiil odd to me the differences in cost between affliction and leech.. i will do some reverse engineering to leech abilites.. seems overpriced maybe?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Devil_Dante

Yes, after 3 pages i have finally understood it XD

Anyway, seems stiil odd to me the differences in cost between affliction and leech.. i will do some reverse engineering to leech abilites.. seems overpriced maybe?

The difference is because of a couple of things.
Leech requires a grapple (basically) but it lasts longer than Affliction.
Also it heals the user.
So it has some nice advantages over using Affliction to lower Attributes.

[Devil_Dante]

have sense after all.. leech is a cool ability, very cinematic.. it s just a little bit expansive to be used and be considered a real threat. From a GM prospective, is not a big deal. But from a build-creator prospective, having a single ability, even very strong but so damn expansive, it s a shame... 150, 170 points are a lot!!
My PCs will fight some "vampire lord style-ish" boss, with some leeching attack, that s why i insisted on this thread: wanted to understand how leech can be used, and i'm pretty cool!! Don't know if my PCs will be cool too XD

edit: One last thing, just to the theorycrafting: have this

Leech 5 (Ranged, +40%; Malediction 2, +150%; Reliable 5, +25%; Accelerated healing, +25%; Steal ST, +100%) TOTAL = +340% (110+17,6/lvl) [181]

and this

Affliction attribute penalty 1 [10/lvl] (malediction 2, +150%; ST – 5, +25%; Reliable 5, +25%) Total = +200% [30] + Regeneration, very fast (Accessibility, only when leech, -20%, Reduce heal to 5, -10%; Decrease duration 1/60, -35%;) Total = -65% [53] Total [83]

the same effect?
1) Both have a quick contest vs Attribute full value; the first against will, the second against HT
2)the healing time is more in the first case ( 10 mins of rest per point, instead of 1 min per marine of succes)
3)same ST stolen
4)same HP healed

Thanks

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Devil_Dante

edit: One last thing, just to the theorycrafting: have this
[snip]

the same effect?

1) Both have a quick contest vs Attribute full value; the first against will, the second against HT
2)the healing time is more in the first case ( 10 mins of rest per point, instead of 1 min per marine of succes)
3)same ST stolen
4)same HP healed

The critical difference here is that the Leech build can be applied repeatedly to the same target, whereas the Affliction build only works once, and then you have to wait for it to wear off before using it on the same target again. So, if you were fighting some huge monster with ST 50, I'd much rather have the Leech build - that would let me repeatedly drain the opponent, maybe get it down to some level of ST where it won't instantly pulp someone it hits. Whereas the Affliction build would put it down to ST 45, but couldn't drop it any further.

[Devil_Dante]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

The critical difference here is that the Leech build can be applied repeatedly to the same target, whereas the Affliction build only works once, and then you have to wait for it to wear off before using it on the same target again. So, if you were fighting some huge monster with ST 50, I'd much rather have the Leech build - that would let me repeatedly drain the opponent, maybe get it down to some level of ST where it won't instantly pulp someone it hits. Whereas the Affliction build would put it down to ST 45, but couldn't drop it any further.

right.. adding the cumulative, +400%
Affliction attribute penalty 1 [10/lvl] (malediction 2, +150%; ST – 5, +25%; Reliable 5, +25%; cumulative, +400%) Total = +600% [70] + Regeneration, very fast (Accessibility, only when leech, -20%, Reduce heal to 5, -10%; Decrease duration 1/60, -35%;) Total = -65% [53] Total [123]

if my math is correct.

My task is to test the cost efficiency.. With cumulative on affliction, both powers should be the same now. And if i have done no mistakes, affliction is still cheaper

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Devil_Dante

My task is to test the cost efficiency.. With cumulative on affliction, both powers should be the same now. And if i have done no mistakes, affliction is still cheaper

The other difference is that the lost attributes will come back sooner with Affliction compared to Leech - with Affliction, it will be minutes equal to their margin of loss on the Quick Contest, and then they get everything back at once. Whereas with Leech, it's 1 point of ST regained every 10 minutes. You'd probably need to add Extended Duration X30 or X100 to the Affliction to match that. Of course, that only adds 6 or 8 points to the cost of the Affliction, so you're still right, the Affliction build is still ending up cheaper.

I think this might be an issue with the enhancement pricing for Steal Other Score for Leech. I could see taking them down a bit - perhaps +50% for Steal ST/HT, and +100% for Steal DX/IQ. I haven't worked the math, but that should bring them at least closer to the values you get with Afflicting attribute penalties.