[HT] [TS] More machine-gun questions

[Sable Wyvern]

I've fairly heavily edited my previous post, so I thought I should bump for anyone actually interested in the process of indirect MG fire.

[Icelander]

To my mind, the arguments for the complexity of indirect fire of machine guns and the similarity to mortar fire both support the same conclusion.

Much of what is being discussed there is a function of the Fire Direction skill in 3e, which is absent in 4e. In a military-centred game, I'd reintroduce it and have it be used with any indirect fire weapon. In a non-military centred game, I'd fold this aspect under Forward Observer skill, albeit a completely different familiarity*.

In either case, the skill used to fire the weapon is merely a function of following directions (and having the specialised knowledge to understand them) well, at least if the fire controller and forward observer are good. When the Artillery skill really comes into its own is for adjusting the aim based on feel, experience and on-the-fly calcuations, i.e. in exceptional circumstances.

Unlike mortars and trebuchets, machine guns are primarily used in direct fire. Indirect fire is taught as an adjunct to the primary use, very much a specialised method of using the weapon. Usually, in GURPS, such ancilliary uses are represented by Techniques, not seperate skills.

It might well be accurate to call indirect fire of machine guns an IQ-based Technique at a penalty, rather than simply float the skill to IQ as I proposed. On the other hand, since the fire control chief is doing most of the math and the one firing the weapon is not doing anything very different from what he'd do for laying down a beaten zone on a map sector in direct fire, I'm not sure a penalty is warranted. Remember, indirect fire is at -10 by default and doesn't allow an Acc bonus, so it's not as if a gunner with high skill is going to hit anything without a bonus from Forward Observer (and Fire Direction, in a military-centred game).

*As different as Administration for running your own business and Administration for working as a mid-level bureaucrat.

[Sable Wyvern]

I'm not sure there's a clear right and wrong here, but I don't agree with all your conclusions, Icelander.

Mainly, I don't think the -10 for an unspotted target has any bearing on a MG being used for map predictive fire or anything similar. If the weapon is laid correctly, the rounds will land within the beaten zone.

Secondly, while the skill Artillery (MG) would certainly be necessary to actually plot an SFMG fire mission, it would also allow the gun to be laid quickly and correctly, and ensure that it remains correctly laid during the mission. And I would expect that a trained mortarman could carry out these tasks more accurately and more efficiently than an expert machine gunner who has never been trained in either SFMG or mortars.

Having said all that, it certainly wouldn't break the game in any way to treat indirect fire as a technique.

Essentially, I see the breakdown as this:

The forward observer will determine the position where he wants the rounds to land. This may be done during combat, but with SFMG it is more likely to be pre-planned defensive fire. A poor roll means that the information he feeds back down the line may be erroneous, meaning that accurate use of this data will lead to fire landing other than where he wants it.

An IQ-based Artillery (MG) check plots the relevant details of the mission based on this information.

A DX-based Artillery (MG) check is used to maintain the desired lines of fire*, and shift between targets if the fire mission calls for it. At the completion of the mission, a check is made to accurately re-lay the gun ready for final protective fire (if an FPF plan is in place).

*If the gun is laid correctly, I probably wouldn't actually call for skill checks to actually fire the weapon, assuming the gunner is adequately trained - keeping it properly aligned isn't a particularly odious task. Which, to be fair, means it doesn't really matter whether the task of actually firing is an Artillery, Guns or Gunner skill. I would treat the beaten zone as an area of suppression fire, but with a bonus over the normal limit.

[Polydamas]

Thanks for the replies so far. Its less likely to come up, but how long does it take to attack rounds to a charger clip? The more likely scenario is a character with something that shoots too fast, too few magazines, and a pocket full of loose rounds; but I can imagine a character who combines too few rounds into clips and has to assemble more in combat time.

I've edited the OP with answers to many of the questions. I'm suspicious of skill proliferation, but I'm inclined to go with Artillery (MG), because this seems to be a specialized skill which not all military machinegunners learn.

[Ulzgoroth]

In my own highly non-canonical version of indirect fire, the attack roll is made by the person who plans the fire, with the skill used for that, and who actually fires the gun with what skill is incidental (so long as they don't mess it up). I seem to have failed to fit that into my previous post, sorry.

So I would definitely make the attack roll with Artillery as well, I just wouldn't necessarily require the gunner to have it, or the one with the Artillery skill to have Gunner.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Thanks for the replies so far. Its less likely to come up, but how long does it take to attack rounds to a charger clip? The more likely scenario is a character with something that shoots too fast, too few magazines, and a pocket full of loose rounds; but I can imagine a character who combines too few rounds into clips and has to assemble more in combat time.

If a soldier have a M16 with 30 round magazines, shoot all of its magazines up, and need to reload with loose, rounds, it's 1 turn to take off the magazine, and 2 turns per bullet into the magazine, so, 60 turns, then pick up the M16 again, 1 turn, put the magazine into the M16, 1 turn, and prepare to fire, 1 turn.
Total:64 turns

Much better options are:
A)Search for a dead soldier, ally or enemy, pick up his weapon, or, if possible, his magazines, and use that. Time needed: Around 5-10 seconds
B)Drop your weapon, take up your pistol, use your pistol. Time needed: At most, 2 seconds.
C)Search for the nearest ally, ask him for a couple of magazines. Time Needed: Around 5-10 seconds
D)If you carry 8 magazines, and you see you only have 2 left, stop using the full RoF and start using your rifle in semi-auto. Intelligence needed: IQ9
E)surrender, if you shot 200+ bullets, there is no other weapon around, there is no downed enemy with a weapon nearby, you have no pistol, no allies, no extra magazines because you wasted it all without killing the enemies, you are simply not good enough for battle. Time saved: the entire campaign.

[Sable Wyvern]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I'm suspicious of skill proliferation, but I'm inclined to go with Artillery (MG), because this seems to be a specialized skill which not all military machinegunners learn.

I'm not sure many militaries employ SFMG at all. I know the Brits and the Australians do, but I've never come across any references to it outside Commonwealth troops.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

E)surrender, if you shot 200+ bullets, there is no other weapon around, there is no downed enemy with a weapon nearby, you have no pistol, no allies, no extra magazines because you wasted it all without killing the enemies, you are simply not good enough for battle. Time saved: the entire campaign.

You don't necessarily have the freedom to move to get more ammunition. Or clear sight to where any downed enemies dropped their weapons.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Sable Wyvern

I'm not sure many militaries employ SFMG at all. I know the Brits and the Australians do, but I've never come across any references to it outside Commonwealth troops.

New Zealand does (or did in the early 90s, anyway). Another Commonwealth country, of course. A pair of FN MAGs, with the butt-stock replaced with the vehicle/tripod stub and mounted on a tripod, three spare barrels each laid out, a Land Rover's worth of ammo, and a bunch of nicely surveyed stakes and landmarks and you're good to go.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

If a soldier have a M16 with 30 round magazines, shoot all of its magazines up, and need to reload with loose, rounds, it's 1 turn to take off the magazine, and 2 turns per bullet into the magazine, so, 60 turns, then pick up the M16 again, 1 turn, put the magazine into the M16, 1 turn, and prepare to fire, 1 turn.
Total:64 turns

Why are you assuming that I’m talking about soldiers, when I already mentioned “characters” with too few magazines? Outside of campaigns where everyone is a soldier, the typical RPG character doesn’t have a dozen magazines or proper load-bearing equipment, and in my experience parties don’t standardize on a few calibres so they can swap magazines.