[HT] [TS] More machine-gun questions

[Polydamas]

Rather than give my inexpert opinion on the GURPS rules for modern guns, I thought I would post my own questions. I'm trying to get together a squad for a WW II squad combat game and I have some questions.

1) About how much does a spare barrel for automatic weapons cost compared to the whole gun? High Tech often gives a weight, but not a cost. I know that GURPS prices are always hard to set, especially when they deal with things mainly sold in huge lots to national governments!

Answer: jacobmuller suggests either 30% of cost, or cost x (barrel weight / empty weight). Hans once suggested $500 for a $1500 SCAR on this forum.

2) What about heat-resistant (asbestos while that was legal) gloves for changing barrels on guns which don’t have a handle for that? Low Tech suggests $1500 (!), 0.5 lb, DR 1*/3 burn.

Answer: Matthew Riggsby suggests $60-200/pair in 2012 dollars. Perhaps 10% of Low Tech's cost is reasonable?

3) What skill is used for indirect fire with machine guns? A hypothetical Artillery (Machine Gun)?

Answer: Rupert and Sable Wyvern agree. Icelander and Ulzgoroth prefer an IQ-based Gunner roll. Since I think Rupert is a NZ infantry veteran, I'll go with him.

4) On turns when he isn't helping to reload or do immediate action, can a machinegunner's assistant take Concentrate manoeuvres to spot for him with the rules on Tactical Shooting pp. 11 and 16?

Answer: Rupert says yes.

5) How long does it take to reload a detachable magazine or charger clip? I would guess around 2i for the magazine, but I have no idea if the springs make this complicated. The silence of the rules suggests that this might be impractical during combat.

Answer: Most seem to think this is reasonable for loading loose ammunition from a pouch or pocket into a magazine. Two hands are needed. More time may be needed to get out and open a box of rounds.

6) Am I correct that there is no way to get higher than RoF 1 with a bolt-action gun?

Answer: Yes

7) Addendum: Why does a PPSh-41 drum cost more than a PPSh with one empty drum?

Answer: According to Kromm and Hans, this is because historical prices for this mass-produced weapon don't match the generic formula on HT p. 155

[Landwalker]

Hope you don't object over much if I throw out a question of my own to piggyback on your list:

7) If cost-before-the-slash for non-heavy firearms is the cost of the gun plus one empty magazine, and the cost-after-the-slash is the cost of one empty magazine sans gun, why does one empty PPSh-41 drum magazine cost more than (one empty PPSh-41 drum magazine + one PPSh-41)?

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

5) How long does it take to reload a detachable magazine or charger clip? I would guess around 2i for the magazine, but I have no idea if the springs make this complicated. The silence of the rules suggests that this might be impractical during combat.

6) Am I correct that there is no way to get higher than RoF 1 with a bolt-action gun?

5)I guess 2i for most magazines seems right, some of them maybe require 3i. A charger clip could probably reload a magazine in 5 seconds, assuming you have both hands free, so, take the magazine off, 1 turn, drop the rifle and pick the charger, 1+1 turns, put the charger into the magazine 1+1+5, pick up the rifle 1+1+5+1, reload the rifle 1+1+5+1+1 get the rifle ready to fire 1+1+5+1+1+1.
Total=10 seconds, versus 3 of already having a magazine loaded. Of course, you can buy an SKS rifle, then, you put the charger clip directly into the rifle, reducing the time of reload to 3 seconds.

6)Even 1 is a bit too much, in 3E it was 1/2 for some bolt action rifles. Of course, you can theoretically use fast firing, but it doesn't seem realistic. I doubt you can find someone who shoots 2 shots with a bolt action every second.

[Icelander]

For 3) (mislabeled 4), I'd float Gunner (Machine Gun) over to IQ and call it a day. Of course, if you're not familiar with that usage, you'll suffer a penalty.

For 4), absolutely. That's one of the things he's for, after all.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

2) What about heat-resistant (asbestos while that was legal) gloves for changing barrels on guns which don’t have a handle for that? Low Tech suggests $1500 (!), 0.5 lb, DR 1*/3 burn.

The prices in Low-Tech assume that asbestos is a rare and unusual material. Modern heat-resistant gloves suitable for metalwork look like they're in the $60 to $200 range, which seems a reasonable ballpark.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

7) If cost-before-the-slash for non-heavy firearms is the cost of the gun plus one empty magazine, and the cost-after-the-slash is the cost of one empty magazine sans gun, why does one empty PPSh-41 drum magazine cost more than (one empty PPSh-41 drum magazine + one PPSh-41)?

An error; that $260 should probably be $26, or some other number smaller than $200.

[jacobmuller]

1) you could figure barrel cost either of two ways, both of which I'm basing on GURPS Classic Vehicles 3e:
a - if you have the barrel weight, treat the weapon cost/ empty weight as the cost per lb.
b - 30% of empty weapon cost.
But that doesn't mean it's actually correct, just a usable number.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Kromm

An error; that $260 should probably be $26, or some other number smaller than $200.

The price is probably $260, it's a drum magazine(almost all around $250-$300).
The curved magazine is only $29, but in the table, it's the drum magazine listed.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Kromm

An error; that $260 should probably be $26, or some other number smaller than $200.

I don’t know … the price for one drum probably comes from the formula on HT p. 155, and is similar to other drum magazines. Possibly this is a case where “in Soviet Russia” something costs less than it ‘typically’ should?

[Kromm]

Then the SMG itself must be underpriced . . . perhaps Hans forgot to add that $260 to the $200 for the gun, and the price should be $460? Or maybe the $200 assumes a box, not a drum? I guess we'll have to wait for him to speak up!