Confusion about Scopes, Precision Aim, etc

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Refplace

This seems the best to me.
Adjusting your scope while aiming just doesnt make any sense as your making the gun wobble and thus I would say once you start to adjust the variable scope you have to start fresh with your aim sequence. Remember breathing can be enough to throw off your aim, so no way fiddling with a scope while aiming passes my plausibility test.
Then you aim long enough to get the bonus as per the rating it is set to.

It messes with your aim, but there's no way it automatically throws you back to square one. I can pretty easily dial in my scope from x3 to x9 while keeping the crosshairs on a stationary buck, but that probably doesn't apply in combat or under time pressure.

Making it a ready manuever with an associated skill roll lets you accrue bonuses using extra time and non-combat TDMs.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by hal

Aim one second to get the Styr's inherent accuracy for a bullpup design, +1 second of aim results in:

Inherent Accuracy + 2 for aim plus scope bonus after only two seconds aim.

Not quite. A +1 scope only requires a single second of aim to get its benefit. The first aim maneuver gets the weapon's accuracy and the +1 scope bonus.

However, I think the 1.5x scope on the AUG is too low-powered to give a full +1 bonus, as High Tech seems to indicate. It's likely below the game's resolution.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

As for variable scopes, I would require that they are adjusted as a Ready maneuver in most cases, and once set function as a fixed-power scope of that magnification. While you've already got the weapon pointed at the target, it takes time to adjust the magnification and reset your grip on the weapon. I think requiring a second to re-aim (Also re-gripping the weapon, etc) seems valid in that case. For longer-term aiming it would be different. Precision Shooting seems to assume adjustments of the sights as part of the technique. I'd let the shooter set the sights to what they want each time they roll against the technique, though with the first roll being at 6 seconds, there seems little reason to use anything less than full magnification.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

If that's what it meant it would be very poorly written, since it makes no mention at all of adjusting magnification being involved.

Actually, it's a very general and ambiguous statement, rather than a highly specific rules description. The proper place to read the rules language is under Telescopic Vision. Second, understand that TV applies to devices beyond rifle scopes -- spotting scopes, EO turrets on gunships, etc. -- and thus is pretty generic to begin with. Thus, I wouldn't assume that scopes don't work like they do in real life. Perhaps if someone gets around to it, maybe we'll see a GURPS Sniper product someday, and it will be more explicit on this issue.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Remember breathing can be enough to throw off your aim, so no way fiddling with a scope while aiming passes my plausibility test.

It's probably safe to assume that GURPS is a little less restrictive than that. Basic Set says "If you are injured while aiming, you must make a Will roll or lose your aim." So, you can be shot and still maintain Aim. That' a little worse than just breathing. If you read the Precision Aiming technique you will see it requires equipment to use it, and that it is not explained exactly how it is used with the technique in combat. I assume it is used as the technique is used -- that is, some calculating, some looking through the scope, some adjusting the scope, etc. It's not all staring through the glass and getting all Zen on the trigger. Of course, neither is real life long range shooting. It's often very equipment related, and requires some serious dedication to reading the wind and judging for distance. Thus the perks in GF and TS.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Refplace

This seems the best to me.
Adjusting your scope while aiming just doesnt make any sense as your making the gun wobble and thus I would say once you start to adjust the variable scope you have to start fresh with your aim sequence. Remember breathing can be enough to throw off your aim, so no way fiddling with a scope while aiming passes my plausibility test.
Then you aim long enough to get the bonus as per the rating it is set to.

Self adjusting scopes would be able to get the bonus incrementally if they readjusted each second but you would have to write that in the program. I would expect them to adjust in 1 turn based on the results from a synched up ranger finder. So by default I would even say a self adjusting scope would act as a fixed it just would not require the operator to reset it.

Well, if we're talking TL9, I think it's reasonable to have a scope that behaves like the scope on the sniper rifle in Unreal, or, for a real-world example, as the zoom on a digital camera. I.e. when you start aiming, you lightly press a button, and the field of view begins gradually zooming in (say, 10° per second, or whatever progression is appropriate). It stops when either the button is released or when it reaches the maximum predefined zoom.

Not sure how feasible it is at TL8. But mechanical binoculars and digital cameras can gradually zoom in, and computerized scopes exist, so I think even if it doesn't exist yet, it should show up before TL9 arrives.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by hal

My impression of the Styr scope was that it was automatically there in place of the iron sights. If the bonus for a scope were to be treated as being equal to the integer value of the square root of the scope magnification, the 1.5x scope would have granted in GURPS terms, a +1 bonus, and would have required only one full second's worth of aim to get the +1 bonus.

Why would anyone do that? The rules are quite clear about how the bonus and the magnification relate, and that is not it.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Not quite. A +1 scope only requires a single second of aim to get its benefit. The first aim maneuver gets the weapon's accuracy and the +1 scope bonus.

However, I think the 1.5x scope on the AUG is too low-powered to give a full +1 bonus, as High Tech seems to indicate. It's likely below the game's resolution.

Again, we run into the issue of what the rules state versus what people understand them to mean.

As best as I understand, regardless of whether you use a scope or iron sights, the first second of aim garners ONLY the inherent accuracy of the weapon, never any other bonus. You're taking the "one second to aim" to mean ANY aim at all. So, right off the bat, the rules are saying two different things to two different people.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by hal

Again, we run into the issue of what the rules state versus what people understand them to mean.

As best as I understand, regardless of whether you use a scope or iron sights, the first second of aim garners ONLY the inherent accuracy of the weapon, never any other bonus. You're taking the "one second to aim" to mean ANY aim at all. So, right off the bat, the rules are saying two different things to two different people.

Except the rules for Aim only state that you get the Acc bonus by Attacking after an Aim. That's it.

The only mention of time in Aim is for the extra bonuses for spending more time. No where does it state that its a second to get the Acc bonus. While it is easy to infer this from the fact that a turn is a second and it only takes two seconds of aiming to get the first bonus for time, it still does not change the fact that the only requirement RAW has is that you Attack the target you were Aiming at.

[hal]

Going back to the rules and quoting them one by one - not to prove anyone else wrong or myself right, but to lay the groundwork for the debate:

Page 548:

Aim for one turn: +Accuracy of weapon
Extra Aim: +1 for 2 seconds, +2 for 3+ seconds
Braced weapon: +1 if stationary and took a turn to Aim

(under Targeting Systems)

Laser sight: +1
Scope: +1 per second of Aim, to a maximum of the scope’s bonus

Actual wording in the rules related to AIM:

Two handed use of a one handed firearm constitutes a braced one-handed firearm. Any firearm braced on a sandbag, car, wall, etc - or a two handed firearm using a bipod is considered to be braced.

Question to resolve: Does the act of bracing a weapon take an action, or is it considered to be part of the "aim" action itself as a free action. In other words, if a character selects "Aim" as their action, and declare the weapon to be braced, does that character now gain a +2 bonus to hit if they choose an attack option next turn (+1 because it is braced, and +1 because of the aim?). Wording seems to be such that it could go either way in interpretation. In other words, Bracing AND aming seems to be a two phase action as opposed to a single action such as a simple non-braced aim.

Then the section on pabe 364 goes on to state:

"If you Aim for more than one second, you receive an additional bonus: +1 for two seconds of Aim, or +2 for three or more seconds."

Note that this is stating ADDITIONAL bonus. Also note, that the additional bonus for a targeting system is NOT mentioned in the sequence above as to where the Targeting bonus comes into play.

Page 372 mentions the sequence involved for calculting the to hit value, starting with a base value, adding the weapon's accuracy if an aim was taken prior to an attack option to fire the weapon at its target, applying a size modifier (if applicable), and modifying for speed/range of target plus any other external factors such as light, movement of shooter, etc. The final result is the effective skill.

Note however, the the rules regarding when to apply the scope bonus does not come into play, and the ONLY reference to a single second of aim granting the weapon's accuracy bonus is on page 548 "Aim for one turn". Therein lies the reason I had believed that scopes and/or extra turns of aim for extra bonus to hit, were linear, not concurrent. Mind you, I'm not HARPING on the idea that 2 seconds of aim can NOT be concurrent with scope bonus, I'm just saying WHY I had belived it was liinear and not concurrent.

Looking at the scope rules themselves, they do not specify when in the sequence of determining a base skill with a weapon plus aim bonuses, the targeting system bonuses take effect.

So - truth is, there is NOTHING in the basic rules that specify that aiming for 2 extra seconds to gain the extra aim bonus, counts concurrently with the scope aim bonus. That is, not until the EXAMPLE on page 84 grants a shooter firing a braced rifile at a target and aiming for 3 seconds using a +2 scope - a total of +5 for braced, extra aim 2 seconds, and a +2 scope bonus. Problem is? There doesn't seem to be any rules specifying that target system bonuses accrue concurrently with the extra aim bonus. It is however, either an oversight in the example (ie an errata) or it is the one place where we finally see that extra aim is concurrent with targeting system aim. (and I am willing to keep an open mind on this, but none the less, the issue of one second aim granting ONLY the weapon bonus of accuracy seems pretty clear cut based on page 548.)