Confusion about Scopes, Precision Aim, etc

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Are you familiar with any modern rifle-scopes where it is standard practice to switch the magnification on a second-to-second basis while the target is acquired? Do any marksmen train to do so?

Can someone explain where the rules are that describe this in some explicit fashion? I'm just not reading this in the rule, but that may be a result of apriori assumptions. As for adjusting magnification quickly, this is in certain applications, common practice. You may look up Switchview Levers, for instance, as one means of making scope adjustments easier on the fly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-lFFNzoZDs

These are routinely used in 3-gun competitions, where you go from a 1x magnification at 50 yards to the very next timed shot at 200 yards, and you need to instantly bump the magnification to 4x. Do snipers make adjustments to scopes as the observe the target? Possibly. This would come up if they were prepping a shot at an unknown distance and trying to estimate range, and/or adjust magnification and mil-dots for a target to get the ballistic solution right if the scope was set for one range and the target appeared at another. Normally, no, they don't do this. You setup for a shot at a specific distance, dial in the magnification, and then if you did this right and the target appears, your reticle should be right. But sometimes you must. Yes, it's possible to use mil-dots or some other ballistic compensating reticle, but not all scopes have this, and not all shooters use them -- some shooters adjust the turrets to the range to move the cross hairs to point of impact. That can be done by looking through the scope and adjusting the turrets. It's not always done that way, of course; it could well be that Aim is not "stare through scope with finger on trigger" so much as "figure out how to hit the target and make adjustments to weapon/optics to accomplish that." GURPS is pretty generic in that regard.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

Can someone explain where the rules are that describe this in some explicit fashion? I'm just not reading this in the rule, but that may be a result of apriori assumptions.

Under GURPS rules, using a fixed-power scope means that you need to Aim for as many seconds as the bonus the optic gives and then receive that bonus all at once. Using a variable scope, of any power, means that you get a +1 per turn up to the maximum bonus allowed by the scope.

This means that a 6-24x variable scope is somehow preferable for quick target acquisition than a x4 fixed one. With the 6-24x variable scope, you get a +1 for the first second of Aim (at typical urban engagement ranges, one second of Aim is all you have time for) and then a +1 for each second you want to Aim after that, up to +4. With the x4 fixed scope, you have to Aim a minimum of 2 seconds to get any bonus.

I don't think that a rule that allows variable scopes to function like that reflects reality. I would be much more comfortable with saying that with variable scopes, you have the option of having them function as a fixed power scope of several (usually three) distinct magnifications and can alter that setting with a Ready maneuver (or several Ready maneuvers, for less handy versions).

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I don't think that a rule that allows variable scopes to function like that reflects reality. I would be much more comfortable with saying that with variable scopes, you have the option of having them function as a fixed power scope of several (usually three) distinct magnifications and can alter that setting with a Ready maneuver (or several Ready maneuvers, for less handy versions).

Agreed. I might allow variable scopes to be adjusted quickly with the equivalent of a Fast-Draw roll (maybe rolling Guns at -6?) Success would let you switch magnification instantly, failure would make it take a Ready maneuver - which could spoil your Aim if you're already sighting the target. Equipment that aids with switching magnification (such as that Switchview device) would provide a bonus, while some UT computerized sights might be able to do it automatically.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Agreed. I might allow variable scopes to be adjusted quickly with the equivalent of a Fast-Draw roll (maybe rolling Guns at -6?) Success would let you switch magnification instantly, failure would make it take a Ready maneuver - which could spoil your Aim if you're already sighting the target. Equipment that aids with switching magnification (such as that Switchview device) would provide a bonus, while some UT computerized sights might be able to do it automatically.

Maybe disallow instant adjusting unless the character had the Lightning Fingers Perk, which appears tailor made for this. I think that adjusting the magnification in effectively zero time is probably something that needs to be trained.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Using a variable scope, of any power, means that you get a +1 per turn up to the maximum bonus allowed by the scope.

That's not quite what it says:

The rule in Basic Set says:
With a fixed-power scope, you must Aim for at least as many seconds
as the scope’s bonus. With a variable-power scope, you may Aim for
fewer seconds, but this reduces your bonus by a like amount.

The rule in High-Tech says:
With a fixed-power scope, you must Aim for at least as many seconds as the bonus. With a variable-power scope, you may Aim for fewer seconds but this reduces the bonus by a like amount.

For variables, I have always perceived this as saying: adjust your scope (at some point prior to combat, or take a ready maneuver) to the Acc bonus you want, then aim and shoot. Want +1? Adjust to +1 Acc, Aim and shoot. Want +2? Adjust magnification to get +2, Aim, and Shoot.

I don't think that a rule that allows variable scopes to function like that reflects reality. I would be much more comfortable with saying that with variable scopes, you have the option of having them function as a fixed power scope of several (usually three) distinct magnifications and can alter that setting with a Ready maneuver (or several Ready maneuvers, for less handy versions).

The wording does not prevent that interpretation. All it says is if you aim for less time you get a lower Acc bonus. Telescopic vision says it pretty explicitly: "+1 Accuracy per level with ranged attacks provided you take an Aim maneuver for seconds equal to the bonus." Your 6x scope is Level 2 according to Basic Set 471.

Also, HT suggests that x4 scopes and above should get bulk -1, so your massive x6-24 scope IS slower. Newer and slimmer scopes, usually collimating too, like the Schimdt and bender in TS64, don't get this.

[vicky_molokh]

I've always been curious: what should we do with the ×1½ scope that (or so I heard) came with the Steyr AUG A1 at some point? Reportedly it was useful for a slight boost of accuracy at above-average ranges without demanding extra time for target-seeking, but how to model that in GURPS?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by safisher

For variables, I have always perceived this as saying: adjust your scope (at some point prior to combat, or take a ready maneuver) to the Acc bonus you want, then aim and shoot. Want +1? Adjust to +1 Acc, Aim and shoot. Want +2? Adjust magnification to get +2, Aim, and Shoot.

If that's what it meant it would be very poorly written, since it makes no mention at all of adjusting magnification being involved.

[Crakkerjakk]

FWIW, when trying to engage targets (in general, furry mammals of the tasty variety) with a scoped weapon, what I do is keep the scope at the lowest magnification while searching for the target. Once I locate the target, if it is generally stationary I keep the weapon pointed generally at the animal and crank the magnification up until it mostly fills the field of view of the scope. Then I sight back in and start getting ready to fire.

While it is not technically against the RAW to require players to adjust their variable power scopes, the scope auto-magically adjusting itself is the clearest interpretation of the rules text to me.

That said, in my games it requires a Ready action to change the magnification of a variable-power scope, with Lightning Fingers making it a free action, but in both cases a Guns roll is required to keep your current Aim bonus instead of having to start over from scratch.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

FWIW, when trying to engage targets (in general, furry mammals of the tasty variety) with a scoped weapon, what I do is keep the scope at the lowest magnification while searching for the target. Once I locate the target, if it is generally stationary I keep the weapon pointed generally at the animal and crank the magnification up until it mostly fills the field of view of the scope. Then I sight back in and start getting ready to fire.

While it is not technically against the RAW to require players to adjust their variable power scopes, the scope auto-magically adjusting itself is the clearest interpretation of the rules text to me.

That said, in my games it requires a Ready action to change the magnification of a variable-power scope, with Lightning Fingers making it a free action, but in both cases a Guns roll is required to keep your current Aim bonus instead of having to start over from scratch.

This seems the best to me.
Adjusting your scope while aiming just doesnt make any sense as your making the gun wobble and thus I would say once you start to adjust the variable scope you have to start fresh with your aim sequence. Remember breathing can be enough to throw off your aim, so no way fiddling with a scope while aiming passes my plausibility test.
Then you aim long enough to get the bonus as per the rating it is set to.

Self adjusting scopes would be able to get the bonus incrementally if they readjusted each second but you would have to write that in the program. I would expect them to adjust in 1 turn based on the results from a synched up ranger finder. So by default I would even say a self adjusting scope would act as a fixed it just would not require the operator to reset it.

[hal]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I've always been curious: what should we do with the ×1½ scope that (or so I heard) came with the Steyr AUG A1 at some point? Reportedly it was useful for a slight boost of accuracy at above-average ranges without demanding extra time for target-seeking, but how to model that in GURPS?

My impression of the Styr scope was that it was automatically there in place of the iron sights. If the bonus for a scope were to be treated as being equal to the integer value of the square root of the scope magnification, the 1.5x scope would have granted in GURPS terms, a +1 bonus, and would have required only one full second's worth of aim to get the +1 bonus.

Thing is, I had always presumed that the scope bonus came after one aimed for three seconds - that it was linear in that:

Inherenet Accuracy (1 sec) + lesser aim (+1) + Max aim (+1) + Scope required aim in seconds

But it seems from the example given on page 84 of HIGH TECH, that lesser aim and max aim are concurrent with aim bonus for a scope

So...

Aim one second to get the Styr's inherent accuracy for a bullpup design, +1 second of aim results in:

Inherent Accuracy + 2 for aim plus scope bonus after only two seconds aim.

That is how I'd handle it now based on this thread's discussion. None the less, I'm looking at people say "This is how it is" without anything SPECIFIC to back it up. Now, the reason I'm not saying "You're right" or "You're wrong" is simply because I can't find anything that confirms or contradicts the assertion.

As best as I can figure, the only way I'll be comfortable with the rules, is if one of the authors, or perhaps Kromm himself, takes the unprecedented step of giving us not one, not two, but at least three separate examples of using PRECISION AIM.

For instance:

Using a stock rifle with inherent accuracy of 5, present an example of:

Using Precision Aim with a x9 fixed magnification Scope

Using Precision Aim with a x3 to x16 magnification scope

Bonus:

Using Precision Aim with a x22 scope from the CheyTac M200

For now, what I will be using until such written examples come out:

Accuracy bonus to weapon skill equals:

IA + B + AoA(d) + S + 2 (providing aim time spent is greater than 2 seconds, otherwise, only a +1)

(IA = Inherent Accuracy of weapon, B = Braced, AoA(d) is All out Attack determined) and S = scope bonus)

Time spent aiming = 1 + Scope Bonus

Precision Aim:

+1 bonus requires 2xtime spent aiming
+2 bonus requires 4x time spent aiming
+3 bonus requires 8x time spent aiming
+4 bonus requires 15x time spent aiming
+5 bonus requires 30x time spent aiming

As a house rule - scopes require a time to adjust in seconds equal to the new setting bonus minus the original setting bonus, minimum 1 second. A braced rifle is probably easier to adjust the setting of a variable power scope, and a simple dex roll is required for non-braced scopes to keep the target in the cross hairs to avoid losing aim bonus while adjusting the scope. So, using a scope that is a x3(+1 bonus) to x12(+3) variable magnification in my houserule would take: 3-1 or 2 seconds.

This will be a stop gap houserule until the scope rules have been further clarified by the powers that be. Note that what I've written above seems to be the baseline for using scopes WITHOUT precision aim, and that the time spent getting the aim bonus really depends on how powerful those scopes are, where the larger scopes are actively more time consuming in getting those extra bonus values for shooting than would be for the smaller less powerful scopes. I do not know if this is realistic or not, but that's what I have to go with until further notice. :(