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Old 12-20-2011, 04:28 PM   #31
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
yet no one can point to a single refreaces in any of the GURPS book to back this up? where as the most reasonable reading is sites are exactly what most people would call a sight... aka iron sights.

Not even GURPS High Tech, or Tactcial Shooting?
There's this wonderful thing where rules don't have to explicitly exclude every possibility. This is wonderful, since doing so would be impossible. Instead, they make positive statements and largely trust the reader not to arbitrarily infer things not stated.

Nothing anywhere mentions any bonus for the presence of iron sights. Consequently, you can either suppose that there's a secret bonus that none of the GURPS coverage of firearms bothered to describe, or you can suppose that there is no such thing.

The Tactical Shooting rules for what happens when iron sights are messed up strongly suggest that the iron sights are necessary for the Acc attribute of weapons which include them.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:48 PM   #32
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Yes. Kromm has come down very firmly on this: If you're shooting at a combatant with intent to kill, you don't get that bonus. I'd be inclined to limit or eliminate the bonus if hunting for survival (and maybe just hunting in general) as well.
While I note that Kromm has, indeed, come down very firmly, not everyone agrees with him on this.

Without denigrating the mental stress involved in shooting with intent to kill, it is at least logically possible that it is even more difficult to aim accurately when dealing with that mental stress in addition to the fact that you are being shot at. When you can rely, at least to a reasonable degree of certainty, that you will not take fire from the enemy during the turn that you are shooting and that there is no one friendly at risk from your fire or the enemy, I think you may qualify for a +1 to +2 TDM.

This is supported by the vast difference in hit rates between sharpshooters in sniping situations and the same sharpshooters during firefights, for example. Also by statements by Carlos Hitchcock in One Shot, One Kill and multiple other snipers saying similar things. Obviously, the Line Editor calls what appears in the books, but it wouldn't be out of line for GMs who disagree with him to give a small bonus to ambushers and snipers who can be fairly certain that they will be able to take their shots without having to worry about threats to themselves (although they will be in danger after they shoot).
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:34 PM   #33
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
yet no one can point to a single refreaces in any of the GURPS book to back this up? where as the most reasonable reading is sites are exactly what most people would call a sight... aka iron sights.

Not even GURPS High Tech, or Tactcial Shooting?
Suffice to say I think your interpretation is incorrect, and that iron sights are the base of what you're doing, and that "sights" is being used as a stand in for superior supplements or replacements for the iron sights or "down the barrel" sights.

And if you must:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Shooting, p. 13
Sighted shooting involves concentrating to align the eye, rear sight, front sight, and target. (Some variants use only the
front sight, but the difference in game terms is minimal.) This is represented by All-Out Attack (Determined), which gives +1 to Guns. Concentrating on the sights makes shooting more accurate, but alsomeans you can’t dodge. Sighted shooting can be combined with all firing stances except hip shooting – if your gun is at your hip, you can’t look down its sights.
So, just doing an AoA(Determined) for that +1 assumes you're using the iron sights. To get the Acc bonus:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimed Shooting, Tactical Shooting, p. 14
Aimed shooting requires more careful sighting and thus additional time.
In other words, Aimed shooting is just like Sighted Shooting, but MORE SO. That is, more reliance on the basic sights ("iron sights") of the weapon.

If you want to be pedantic about it, you get +1 for acquiring a sight picture with your iron sights at all. This precludes your ability to dodge, and thus gives you what is effectively All-Out Attack. To use the iron sights carefully, taking a full second to line them up, is what gives the extra bonus equal to Acc. Braced gives you +1 for stability, but has nothing to do with sights (though it obviously helps hold them steady).
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:39 PM   #34
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
While I note that Kromm has, indeed, come down very firmly, not everyone agrees with him on this.

...but it wouldn't be out of line for GMs who disagree with him to give a small bonus to ambushers and snipers who can be fairly certain that they will be able to take their shots without having to worry about threats to themselves (although they will be in danger after they shoot).
I would never tell people what to do with their own house rules. I do think, in situations like this, that we carefully distinguish the intent of the rules and the game and how, making no adjustments for taste, they are designed to play out.

I grant your point that if you know you're in a safe, well-concealed spot, a TDM might be appropriate. But Kromm's ruling, I think, is to prevent some guy from taking a bunch of fairly mild diads and claiming that he feels no compunction for human life, ever, and therefore gets a +7 bonus to all his shots, for free, increased to +10 because he alway carries a laser rangefinder, etc.

The game-usual way to account for this is "buy more skill."

Occasional TDMs representing best-case scenarios are far less problematic when they're occasional. If a bonus applies all the time, it should be bought as superior skill.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
No it doesn't becuse you wizard with a wand/staff does the exactly same thing WITHOUT sights.
Why would you say that? I've always taken a wand as an aiming aid for Missile spells and inferred that fine ones could grant a bonus.

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Old 12-20-2011, 06:52 PM   #36
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

The best arguments for iron sights being default is that there's no bonus listed for such sights.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:04 AM   #37
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Senses when? all I see is the ACC of 5 plus +2 for 3 seconds of aiming
Let's assume that that does not include iron sights, and that you get an ACC of 5 from just aligning the barrel with the target.

What, then, are your proposed bonuses for having iron sights included? Because ACC 5 is already very accurate, and will compensate for a large amount of distance, and virtually guarantee a good probability of hitting with aimed fire anywhere within 100 yards, even for a completely unskilled shooter. Why would simply looking down the barrel give this level of precision?

The muskets don't have iron sights. This is because of the fact that smoothbore weapons have inherent deviances in flight profile at long range thanks to lack of stability. Therefore iron sights are almost unnecessary. Adding them wouldn't give enough benefit to even give +1, which is why nobody came up with the concept historically until firearms got accurate and precise enough over range to require some kind of sighting solution.

ACC is an amalgamation of the weapon's basic accuracy bonus, from iron sights, recoil compensation, and other things that are weapon-side like how good a grip you can get on a weapon, how stable the round is in flight, etc etc. ACC assumes a weapon in it's complete, most basic configuration - which, for almost every rifle above TL4, includes a sight.

You can add parts later to improve this, such as a reflex sight or telescopic sight. So if you ARE right, and a weapon doesn't come with any iron sights in the package, what DO you add to the weapon's base ACC with iron sights? Find that in the book somewhere, and you'll have proved your theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
So, just doing an AoA(Determined) for that +1 assumes you're using the iron sights. To get the Acc bonus:

In other words, Aimed shooting is just like Sighted Shooting, but MORE SO. That is, more reliance on the basic sights ("iron sights") of the weapon.

If you want to be pedantic about it, you get +1 for acquiring a sight picture with your iron sights at all. This precludes your ability to dodge, and thus gives you what is effectively All-Out Attack. To use the iron sights carefully, taking a full second to line them up, is what gives the extra bonus equal to Acc. Braced gives you +1 for stability, but has nothing to do with sights (though it obviously helps hold them steady).
That's using the rules from Tac Shooting, which assume modern firearms out of neccessity. AoA determined, at it's basic level, means that you are focusing entirely on the weapon and not bothering to move around or worry about the gunfire. You are focused entirely upon your target, even if only for a second. While you are right in that you will be getting a "sight picture" with a modern weapon, it can just as easily mean standing in a TL5 line infantry section and volley firing instead of bothering to dodge and drop. You're not even bothering to get out of the way and are just hoping the enemy won't hit you, which means your weapon isn't swaying as much and you're not getting distracted.

Sight pictures are kind of incidental to AoA, the lack of movement is more important. Even someone who's not Aiming is probably using the sights, he's probably just not paying any attention to the finer details of marksmanship and is making rapid snap shots. Just because you're doing that doesn't mean you're not using the sights. Tac shooting splits things up to give more definition as to what it is exactly that you're doing.

Remember that GURPS assumes a lethal fight where everyone is moving, jerking around and probably flinching from sources of danger, or ducking in and out of cover, glancing up and down, etc. AoA's there so a fighter can get a bonus if he doesn't (or believes he doesn't) have to worry about that - or is counting on his luck, and really wants that guy dead.
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Last edited by Jetman123; 12-21-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:25 AM   #38
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

I have an (I hope) quick question about iron sights.

In my experience, peep/aperture sights are much easier to use and more accurate than V sights. Would GURPS call both kinds "Iron Sights", because the difference is under the system resolution?
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:07 AM   #39
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

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Originally Posted by Jetman123 View Post
Let's assume that that does not include iron sights, and that you get an ACC of 5 from just aligning the barrel with the target.

What, then, are your proposed bonuses for having iron sights included? Because ACC 5 is already very accurate, and will compensate for a large amount of distance, and virtually guarantee a good probability of hitting with aimed fire anywhere within 100 yards, even for a completely unskilled shooter. Why would simply looking down the barrel give this level of precision?
Simple they at as +1 Fixed Scopes.
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:19 AM   #40
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Default Re: First session -- Speed/Range Table questions

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Simple they at as +1 Fixed Scopes.
I'm confused. Do you mantain that this was the actual intention of the writers and that they simply forgot to actually state it or are you merely sharing your own house rule?

If the latter, I'm sure it won't harm anyone. If the former, that's offensive in its aggressive ignorance.

Several people involved in Tactical Shooting have already stated what the intent was there, quoting rules to that effect.
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