Tactical reloads of shotguns

[safisher]

Originally Posted by reb

why the time on the remove expended shell casings?all double side by sides and over n unders eject the shells upon snapping the breech open

Er, no. There are doubles and singles that are non-ejecting.
In fact, SASS will not allow ejectors. Yes, a well polished bore does indeed help to remove spent cartridges (and is common among CAS shooters). That is not the same as a good, strong ejector, namely because you still have to move to eject them, and because shells do in fact hang from time to time (seen it). Got to keep the chambers clean and use ammo in good condition. Also, it helps if the gun will stay broken open so that you can load two shells in one stroke (and not all guns are that broken in). In essence, the shooter has the Double-Loading technique down.
I won't get into procedures for hammer versus hammerless guns. 'Nuff said.

Originally Posted by reb

i can open the breech in any shotgun in a fraction of a second,i don't know how much actual shooting you do,it don't take no time to ratch a slide or flick a shotgun breech open.

A turn in GURPS is about one second. It "don't take no time" to draw a sword, pistol, or knife either. But that takes a full turn without Fast-Draw.
You get me?

Originally Posted by reb

most military shotguns now use mags either box or cassette. just my thoughts as i shoot a lot.

Really? Do tell about the cassette fed military shotguns. Hans? You listening?

[HANS]

Originally Posted by safisher

Really? Do tell about the cassette fed military shotguns. Hans? You listening?

With fingers in my ears ;)

Yeah, BS. A handful of militaries have acquired shotguns with detachable magazines, usually in very small numbers. The biggest user is the Italian army, which bought 2,000 Franchi SPAS 15 guns in 1999 which they don't seem to use all that much anymore. No military has acquired a shotgun with cassette feed (if you mean the cassettes of the PANCOR Jackhammer, which is the only shotgun magazine I ever heard called a "cassette").

Magazine-fed shotguns haven't been a success so far since shotguns aren't normally used in extended firefights. They are used for police operations (where statistically very few rounds are fired per engagement), guard duty, or door breaching, where 8 or even just 5 shots are well enough. Quickly changing a magazine isn't a required option for most shotgun users. Since detachable shotgun magazines are huge, heavy, and still only hold 10 rounds at best (and don't get me started on drums!), everybody is happy to just use internal tube magazines.

Cheers

HANS

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by safisher

and some organizations may not allow one to pull the trigger except when the barrel is in a bullet catching device or deliberately fired at a target

I'm not an expert on all the myriad actions of shotguns, but range rules should not be a part of mechanics. The default assumption is a combat situation, as I know you're well aware. This portion of your post does not strike me as a persuasive argument.

That said, yes, slide releases are typically a PITA to hit. I just wanted to note that your comment on when they needed to be engaged wasn't an absolute.

[reb]

Originally Posted by HANS

With fingers in my ears ;)

Yeah, BS. A handful of militaries have acquired shotguns with detachable magazines, usually in very small numbers. The biggest user is the Italian army, which bought 2,000 Franchi SPAS 15 guns in 1999 which they don't seem to use all that much anymore. No military has acquired a shotgun with cassette feed (if you mean the cassettes of the PANCOR Jackhammer, which is the only shotgun magazine I ever heard called a "cassette").

Magazine-fed shotguns haven't been a success so far since shotguns aren't normally used in extended firefights. They are used for police operations (where statistically very few rounds are fired per engagement), guard duty, or door breaching, where 8 or even just 5 shots are well enough. Quickly changing a magazine isn't a required option for most shotgun users. Since detachable shotgun magazines are huge, heavy, and still only hold 10 rounds at best (and don't get me started on drums!), everybody is happy to just use internal tube magazines.

Cheers

HANS

your in error there,i have several buddies i know who have been in iraq or are still there and the usas 12 is being used quite a bit as a fire supiority weapon and is fed from a cassette drum.this weapon is relitivily light and small and will put some serious lead downrange.though here we are talking a assault weapon,the usas is a true combat assault shotgun designed for combat cqb engagements and ambushes.and the mags are not all that heavy.when i was in the big sandbox as a marine we sadly did'nt get to use this awsome weapon as it was'nt fielded yet,we used rem 870's.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by reb

your in error there,i have several buddies i know who have been in iraq or are still there and the usas 12

Not according to anything I can find. All I heard when I was getting out was the 870 was being replaced by the Benelli M1014.

That aside, the idea that a shotgun can compare in almost any military combat capacity is ludicrous. A rifle is gonna beat it for target engagement, a MG for area suppression, and a carbine or SMG for CQB. Shotguns have their niche, but it's not any of the ones you've mentioned, really.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by reb

your in error there,i have several buddies i know who have been in iraq or are still there and the usas 12 is being used quite a bit as a fire supiority weapon and is fed from a cassette drum.

Yeah, the "I know some buddies" argument never fails to show up. No branch of the US military has adopted the USAS 12, youtube frothing nonwithstanding, so it is exceedingly unlikely that you're buddies could actually have used it in Iraq or elsewhere.

Originally Posted by reb

this weapon is relitivily light and small

You clearly have never seen the thing in real-life. It's pretty big and at 16.7 lbs with drum as heavy as some LMGs.

Originally Posted by reb

and the mags are not all that heavy.

2.1 lbs for 10 rounds, 4.6 lbs for 20 in a drum isn't heavy??? When 120 rounds of 5.56x45mm weigh 4 lbs in magazines?

Originally Posted by reb

this awsome weapon as it was'nt fielded yet.

Still isn't. Show me the NSN number or actual photos of the thing in use and I believe you; I've tracked small arms acquisition contracts for 15 years (I'm actually employed to build databases that monitor military inventories), and the USAS 12 hasn't been acquired by the US in any capacity, certainly not for front-line service.

Oh, and a drum magazine isn't a cassette by anyone's definition.

Cheers

HANS

[reb]

Originally Posted by safisher

Er, no. There are doubles and singles that are non-ejecting.
In fact, SASS will not allow ejectors. Yes, a well polished bore does indeed help to remove spent cartridges (and is common among CAS shooters). That is not the same as a good, strong ejector, namely because you still have to move to eject them, and because shells do in fact hang from time to time (seen it). Got to keep the chambers clean and use ammo in good condition. Also, it helps if the gun will stay broken open so that you can load two shells in one stroke (and not all guns are that broken in). In essence, the shooter has the Double-Loading technique down.
I won't get into procedures for hammer versus hammerless guns. 'Nuff said.
maybe if your shooting low brass shells that have a light load and a thin base,i have never hardly had a problem with a shotgun failing to extract casings.except for my old wore out stevens single.i own a old savage double that i have fired and fired and fired and not once have i had to pry the casing out by the base,same with my well broke in savage 20 ga.must be the bases they are using probably real thin and a ''tight'' gun.though i keep mine well oiled and a dry breech will be more likely to ''grab'' the bases.though i never shoot hardly 2 1/4 shells which are more likely to not-eject.


A turn in GURPS is about one second. It "don't take no time" to draw a sword, pistol, or knife either. But that takes a full turn without Fast-Draw.
You get me?
yeah,i ''get you s.a'',but we were not discussing drawing weapons were we?shotgun reload times,weapon draws and speed drawing are another topic entirely.


Really? Do tell about the cassette fed military shotguns. Hans? You listening?

i have seen the usas fired live and have held one,damn i can't wait to buy one,the cassette can be changed in about 3 seconds by a semi-practiced shooter that has good hand and eye coordination and has practiced enough on the weapon to get the muscle and mind memory down.
i have model 500 mossberg mariner with a 9 shot extended tube and the fastest i can reload it is 3 1/2 seconds with 3'' mag loads.
watch the usas fire on you tube.if your the poor schmuck on the receiving end then bye bye,siyanora!

[reb]

Originally Posted by HANS

Yeah, the "I know some buddies" argument never fails to show up. No branch of the US military has adopted the USAS 12, youtube frothing nonwithstanding, so it is exceedingly unlikely that you're buddies could actually have used it in Iraq or elsewhere.



You clearly have never seen the thing in real-life. It's pretty big and at 16.7 lbs with drum as heavy as some LMGs.



2.1 lbs for 10 rounds, 4.6 lbs for 20 in a drum isn't heavy??? When 120 rounds of 5.56x45mm weigh 4 lbs in magazines?



Still isn't. Show me the NSN number or actual photos of the thing in use and I believe you; I've tracked small arms acquisition contracts for 15 years (I'm actually employed to build databases that monitor military inventories), and the USAS 12 hasn't been acquired by the US in any capacity, certainly not for front-line service.

Oh, and a drum magazine isn't a cassette by anyone's definition.

Cheers

HANS

i'll get back with you on it,i have to dig it up and send it to you.

[reb]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Not according to anything I can find. All I heard when I was getting out was the 870 was being replaced by the Benelli M1014.

That aside, the idea that a shotgun can compare in almost any military combat capacity is ludicrous. A rifle is gonna beat it for target engagement, a MG for area suppression, and a carbine or SMG for CQB. Shotguns have their niche, but it's not any of the ones you've mentioned, really.

tell that to the leathernecks who carried the 12 ga through the pacific where it was the preferred waepon of choice and veitnam where the 12 ga was widely used as a bush weapon as well as a ambush weapon.need to read up on your history there.a rifle is fine for areas where your going to be shooting at 200+ yards on a regular basis,which is'nt going to happen in a jungle or a urban area.thats what saws are for and m-4's.
in a cqb urban clearing op i sure would want a 12 ga over a m-4 anyday.where you get your whacky notions?i am a ex marine with 18 yrs in a combat arms mos(f.o n inf)so i know what i'm talking about.just because you do work with appropiations don't tell you what actual combat arms units are doing out in the field at the battallion level or the company level.nuff said.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

That aside, the idea that a shotgun can compare in almost any military combat capacity is ludicrous. A rifle is gonna beat it for target engagement, a MG for area suppression, and a carbine or SMG for CQB. Shotguns have their niche, but it's not any of the ones you've mentioned, really.

I agree.

And the reason that I even care about tactical reloads for shotguns is that my bunch of PCs aren't military and can't buy GPMGs, SAWs or carbine length assault rifles. Their shotguns aren't the best weapons possible, they are the best weapons they could legally acquire in a short time*.

That being said, though, when facing the Unliving or otherwise Injury Tolerant, one can do worse than use shotgun slugs.

*With an extra consideration for the fact that buckshot doesn't leave rifling marks for labs to trace and the big plastic shells may be easier to find and police before they leave a scene.