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Old 12-18-2017, 08:45 AM   #21
ericthered
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

I think I've used it wholly as an NPC trait. I've played villainous traits before, but the analysis of it being "Petty" seems to be correct. I've never found a way to make it interesting.

Of course, NPC traits are needed and vital.
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:09 AM   #22
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

When discussing possible protagonist Bullies in fiction, I think it is good to remember that
  • At least some of us are used to thinking of them as obviously fictional characters. With PC's and NPC's, the divide isn't as clearcut because someone has to roleplay them.
  • Often, these are characters possess other Advantages that offset the negative reaction penalties for Bully
  • They may possess other Disadvantages, causing unique interactions like the Bully that is not only justified making a SCR to avoid being a Bully but going back to make amends for the times when the SCR has failed.
  • Not everyone is as sensitive about what counts as Bullying. I'm betting that some of us are more sensitive to physical Bullying, some mental, some emotional, and some social (pardon me if some of those splits are redundant; I believe there is significant overlap to all of them, but enough differences they do need to be named separately.

Of course, YMMV even taking these all into account; I grew up at least superficially valuing intelligence, and know that my base nature is quite petty. As such, it is easy for the severe snarker to still impress me unless I am his or her direct target, at which point I finally realize that he or she is using this to bully.
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:14 AM   #23
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

I remember how miserable my first experience of GURPS was, and it turned out the player I thought of as a bad person later turned out to be playing a character with Bully. Now it turns out the player was not exactly a good person, but it seems like the disadvantage essentially gave the player license for disruptive behaviour.

Others have mentioned OPH for House, and I like that for a more nuanced, good-natured version for a snarky and sarcastic character who doesn’t mean any harm by it. At [-10] for a -2 penalty that can work rather well for something that’s similar but doesn’t quite fit. I don't know how well it applies to House, but if you don't want to pigeon-hole yourself into a role, OPH can do the job of "almost-but-not-quite" for a lot of other disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Oh, and since I have a nasty habit of underestimating the full requirements of a Disadvantage, does this seem like a decent pseudo-heroic trait? Like Overconfidence, a lot of people I know who tend to bully are the "take charge" type. They also tend to claim any belittling involved is all about reinforcing the command structure, "encouraging" you, etc. XP

(Yeah, I sound like a Bully apologist. I'm not, I just know that some folks don't do it just to be mean. Not sure if that actually makes it better or worse...)
While I can see self-deception as a factor, I would also stress this can easily be gaslighting. Maybe they are also fooling themselves, but it’s a set of self-serving justifications designed to normalise their behaviour, and keep their victims doubting themselves. A huge ton of psychological abuse relies on convincing the target that it’s inevitable, that it’s something they just have to endure, that it’s not something that can be reported or taken action against, and so on.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:36 AM   #24
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

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Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
I'm sure that I'd feel uncomfortable playing a Bully myself. I'm pretty sure that I'd not like a player character Bully no matter who was playing it.

This sort of behaviour is 'NPC villain' only in my experience.

A player might get a certain amount of joy out of playing a megalomaniac or even a sadist. There is a level of grandeur in both traits.

But a Bully is not only nasty, he's petty and it is harder to feel good about a petty character. We can all be petty in real life: why both to build a fantasy around it.
I don't think I've played a character with Bully, but just the fact it's not admirable wouldn't keep me from doing so.

I guess I find the thought of playing a PC who's clearly a wish-fulfilment fantasy a bit... icky. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently wrong with self-indulgent fantasising, but subjecting other people to what amounts to self-stimulation is generally considered impolite, at best, unless they've explicitly indicated interest in sharing the experience. Just ask Louie CK.

Which is why I generally try to make PCs who are flawed people, with traits that make them interesting in a fictional context (and motivated to buy into the campaign premise), but not someone I'd fantasise about being.

Maybe I even go too far sometimes to avoid the implications of the PC as wish-fulfilment. I've noticed that I usually give my characters one or more traits that are deliberately at odds with what I find cool, sympathetic or titillating.

And if I notice similarities in characters I've played, I'm likely to try to dramatically vary from that trend the next time I get to make a PC. So maybe I should play a Bully, next time. It would be an interesting challenge to try to make a character with Bully who is nevertheless a valuable part of a more-or-less heroic group of PCs, not to mention at least somewhat sympathetic.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:41 AM   #25
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

Early-seasons House thinks he has Intolerance (stupid people) [-5]. He actually has Intolerance (everybody who isn't me, and sometimes me as well) [-10].
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:13 AM   #26
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

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I disagree that it's just House being snarky. I think it's most obvious with his treatment of the young interns who are candidates to join his team, many of whom are in very vulnerable situations already. One of the outcomes is suicide of one of the newbies.
Also the final arc which starts from him bullying a police officer and how 'badly' it ends up turning out for him.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

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Also the final arc which starts from him bullying a police officer and how 'badly' it ends up turning out for him.
That arc was so over the top absurd that it made the rest of the show almost seem realistic by comparison. I stopped watching at that point and never really got back into the show.
But bullying a bully with more power is probably what eventually destroys most bullies. Even more so than just bullying someone with the power to fight back. It takes another bully to get vindictively destructive, I imagine.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:58 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I don't think I've played a character with Bully, but just the fact it's not admirable wouldn't keep me from doing so.

I guess I find the thought of playing a PC who's clearly a wish-fulfilment fantasy a bit... icky. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently wrong with self-indulgent fantasising, but subjecting other people to what amounts to self-stimulation is generally considered impolite, at best, unless they've explicitly indicated interest in sharing the experience. Just ask Louie CK.

Which is why I generally try to make PCs who are flawed people, with traits that make them interesting in a fictional context (and motivated to buy into the campaign premise), but not someone I'd fantasise about being.

Maybe I even go too far sometimes to avoid the implications of the PC as wish-fulfilment. I've noticed that I usually give my characters one or more traits that are deliberately at odds with what I find cool, sympathetic or titillating.

And if I notice similarities in characters I've played, I'm likely to try to dramatically vary from that trend the next time I get to make a PC. So maybe I should play a Bully, next time. It would be an interesting challenge to try to make a character with Bully who is nevertheless a valuable part of a more-or-less heroic group of PCs, not to mention at least somewhat sympathetic.
Hmmm.

A character you enjoy playing need not be a pure wish fulfillment.

But they do need to be someone you can feel comfortable with being for any length of time.

And there are a large number of people for whom being a bully is a wish fulfillment: they regard being allowed to be ****** towards other people as a grand thing.

Being able to say 'But I'm just playing my character!' is an excuse that only leads you so far.

I would not be comfortable with someone at the table who actively enjoyed playing a bully. And if they volunteered for the job, rather than having it thrust upon them by the GM, then I'd rather not share social space with them.
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:40 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

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Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
I would not be comfortable with someone at the table who actively enjoyed playing a bully. And if they volunteered for the job, rather than having it thrust upon them by the GM, then I'd rather not share social space with them.
Oh, that reminds me. In the original GURPS version of the adventure that became Infection, where the PCs are Arizona militia members dealing with, er, something, one of them has Bully. So I have put it on a PC. I ran that adventure three or four times and I don't recall anyone playing up to it.
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Old 12-19-2017, 05:29 AM   #30
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the week: Bully

Thinking about well-known fictional characters, the one who I recall first who's described as being a bully is Harry Flashman. And interestingly, while his original version, in Tom Brown's Schooldays, was clearly shown as a bully, he was also an unambiguous villain who came, moralistically, to a bad end. MacDonald Fraser's version's bully status is more ambiguous; as I recall (it's a while since I read the books), we only see him bullying people occasionally and briefly, and mostly fairly trivially. TV Tropes might say "Informed Flaw", even.

Because of course he's the protagonist (and the narrator), and while he's an anti-hero, the books need to maintain a certain level of reader sympathy. He's certainly selfish, a coward, and a lecher, as we see amply illustrated, but those traits are funny -- and while they make him a jerk, well, we can most of us admit to a certain preference for not getting hurt and a liking for sex, so we can manage a degree of sympathy for Flashman's instincts.

So even the classic bully gets it toned down.

(I do also recall the classic Tomkinson's Schooldays, including the very end...)
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