ATR/ETS Question

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Acting first is ok, thats still more thinking faster but not able to follow though with extra actions.

I fail to see how acting first is 'more thinking faster'. It's clearly physically acting faster, too.

Originally Posted by Refplace

+1 to all Active defenses is 30 points so this is too cheap as a leveled trait.

Honestly, I've always felt that DB was a bit overpriced, so would be glad enough to allow the initiative and perception bumps for no additional cost.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Here is my take on ETS as a leveled trait.
First draft...
Fast Perception [15]
You can think incredibly fast and can observe everything as if it were in slow motion. Each level doubles your perception speed and allows you to reduce penalties for movement by 1. When determining your speed of perception each level doubles your ability. So at level 5 you could see each frame in some movies (32/FPS). Unless a subject is absolutely still this also adds to your perception roll to spot things, including stealth-ed and camouflaged targets as even their breathing can make them stand out from their surroundings. This ability even lets you read faster by more quickly scanning pages. You may react faster and this allows you to add your level to your basic speed in seeing who goes first. However it does not allow you to do more per turn, for that buy ATR. To follow multiple things at the same time consider Enhanced Tracking.

Seems like a lot of points for not much benefit... unless 'reduce penalties for movement' applies both to target speed and your movement (i.e., reduce the penalty for Move and Attack), and even then...

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Honestly, I've always felt that DB was a bit overpriced, so would be glad enough to allow the initiative and perception bumps for no additional cost.

It might be, especially in the case of having all of them as you get some diminishing returns. But I prefer to stick with RAW where I can.
And burying traits just encourages people to take limitations as they try to parcel things out.
So someone could take your idea and have a limitation for only the AD bonus.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Seems like a lot of points for not much benefit... unless 'reduce penalties for movement' applies both to target speed and your movement (i.e., reduce the penalty for Move and Attack), and even then...

I almost included Enhanced Tracking in it but as I said I prefer to avoid stacking traits vs. the more modular approach of 4e.
As it is its kind of a limited talent that offsets movement penalties and grants a limited per bonus. That is probably a 10 point talent as it covers a wide group of skills and rolls. Buying up Basic Speed for initiative only would be 3 or 4 points. Same with the slightly limited PER bonus.

For 45 points you could have 2 levels and Combat Reflexes.
Giving +1 AD/fast draw and +2 on fright checks. Plus the initive bonus and never freezing. These match up for both builds.
Then +2 to counter movement penalty from fast moving targets, +2 PER in most situations and +2 Initive. See things at quarter speed.

Compared to ETS you lose the absolute portions like always going first and can probably still notice burst stuff just not as all or nothing.
You also lose the take as much time as you need option, which I would probably roll into it but now its take more time based on level. So in this case 4 seconds for everyone else s 1. So your losing some on the abstract portion but gaining concrete and measurable benefits.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

ATR represents the ability to physically act faster (or warp time so it appears that you can). ETS represents the ability to think and perceive faster. They're two related, but different things.

What stumps me is how you can act faster without perceiving faster as a requirement or bi-product.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

What stumps me is how you can act faster without perceiving faster as a requirement or bi-product.

YEah they go together in most builds, though with ATR you can take more maneuvers looking around. Or do evaluate then attack.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

What stumps me is how you can act faster without perceiving faster as a requirement or bi-product.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...UoFCBhNE#t=40s

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I fail to see how acting first is 'more thinking faster'. It's clearly physically acting faster, too.

Among a group of people who perform some action at equal rates of speed, what keeps them from being perpetually in step and synchronized?

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

What stumps me is how you can act faster without perceiving faster as a requirement or bi-product.

You can't, and ATR in fact lets you perceive just as quickly as it lets you act. After all, you are free to take multiple Concentrate maneuvers just as much as any other sort. It's just that that's not as fast ('bullet time') as ETS lets you perceive from the get go, and it doesn't give you any defensive bonus for faster reactions (except for the option of ending your maneuvers with an All-Out Defense for +2 to a defense), nor let you parry bullets unless using that one note in Supers.

Folding the two together makes more sense for most concepts, whether 'superspeed' or 'time control'. If you're one to house rule, you can have ATR do both things on a per level basis; if not, you can always make up a Meta-trait with ATR and ETS and DB for further levels, maybe even some limited DX for Deceptive Attacks and counteracting target speed penalties, and tell players wanting to create speedster PCs that this is how you buy their speed.

E.g.,

Superspeed 1: ETS ('Only' perceives at twice normal speed, -20%) [36]; Altered Time Rate 1 [100]; +2 DX (sell back Basic Speed, only usable for counteracting speed penalties or speed-based Deceptive Attacks, -60%) [12]; Rapid Retraction Perk [1]; Efficient Perk [1]. Total Cost: 150

Superspeed 2: As Superspeed 1, but reduce limitation on ETS to -15% for three times normal speed [+3]; additional level Altered Time Rate [+100]; Defense Bonus 1 [30]; additional +2 DX (sell back Basic Speed, only usable for counteracting speed penalties or speed-based Deceptive Attacks, -60%) [12]. Total Cost: +145 (295 total) - unless you can think of something else to add for 5 points. Actually, even at the 1st level, some Striking ST for your punches flying faster wouldn't be out of order.

Superspeed 3: As Superspeed 2, but reduce limitation on ETS to -10% for four times normal speed [+2]; additional level Altered Time Rate [+100]; Defense Bonus +1 [30]; additional +2 DX (sell back Basic Speed, only usable for counteracting speed penalties or speed-based Deceptive Attacks, -60%) [12]. Total Cost: +144 (439 total)

Superspeed 4: As Superspeed 3, but reduce limitation on ETS to -5% for four times normal speed [+2]; additional level Altered Time Rate [+100]; Defense Bonus +1 [30]; additional +2 DX (sell back Basic Speed, only usable for counteracting speed penalties or speed-based Deceptive Attacks, -60%) [12]. Total Cost: +144 (583 total)

Additional levels 142 pts until the restriction on perception speed is no longer even at Nuisance Effect (-5%) levels. But even at level 4, you'd be getting:

a) 5 maneuvers, perceive things 5x as fast
b) total DB (including the +1 from Combat Reflexes) of +4 to all active defenses
c) choice of ignoring up to -8 in penalties for target speed or getting a 'free' speed-based Deceptive Attack for -4 to enemy defenses on every strike

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Then +2 to counter movement penalty from fast moving targets, .

Sadly, there are no penalties for fast moving objects. Just as there are no penalties for distance. There is only the symmetrical and interchangeable penalties for combned Speed/Range as found on thae table of that name.

I do not love the Speed/Range table (among other reasons it would allow us to deal with these issues separately) and I would be willing to see it go bye-bye in some far-future 5th edition but for now it's RAW.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Sadly, there are no penalties for fast moving objects. Just as there are no penalties for distance. There is only the symmetrical and interchangeable penalties for combned Speed/Range as found on thae table of that name.

I do not love the Speed/Range table (among other reasons it would allow us to deal with these issues separately) and I would be willing to see it go bye-bye in some far-future 5th edition but for now it's RAW.

Well true but I am limiting the modifier to just the movement part. Though with the ability to observe more in a small time might help with seeing smaller things too.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...UoFCBhNE#t=40s

Amusing, but I'm not sure what I should glean from it in this context.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Among a group of people who perform some action at equal rates of speed, what keeps them from being perpetually in step and synchronized?

Not to the point. In order to reliably act before people without Enhanced Time Sense, those who possess the advantage need to not just perceive, but actually physically move before them. Therefore, they're physically moving somewhat more quickly.