[DF] Rare metalworking setting weapons/armor?

[Cowrie]

I have this idea for a Dungeon Fantasy setting based on the pre-Columbian Americas. Like them, metalworking is rare and fairly primitive in this setting, with no ironworking and bronze being very expensive. Most weapons are obsidian or stone, which raises the concern of weapon durability and penetration and combat survivability. With monsters as-written, a party armed with RAW obsidian weapons would probably get killed on the first encounter, especially since most armor would be cloth or leather. However, nerfing each monster used would be a lot of work, which I'm not eager to do.

My next thought was to ignore the armor divisor for obsidian and stone weapons and either halve or eliminate the +2 to breakage. However, I do want some bronze weapons to exist (in particular, there will be an Incan empire counterpart that arms soldiers with bronze-headed macana spears) so removing the two main downsides to stone and obsidian calls into question whether there would be any actual advantage to bronze weapons. Would maybe making bronze benefit from being Fine or Very Fine normally make up for that?

I do want bronze weapons to be more expensive, though. If default costs are for obsidian weapons, and stone weapons have a CF of -0.6, as suggested for weapons made of dated materials in the Basic Set, what would be a reasonable CF for bronze weapons?

Needless to say, this setting won't include meteoric iron weapons and armor, nor orichalcum ones. It might include silver and/or silver-coated ones, though, since I'm pretty sure some cultures in the pre-Columbian Americas did work silver as well as gold and copper. I also might introduce a variant on obsidian that's magic-proof for the same CF as meteoric iron.

Since jadeite was commonly used for weapons in Mesoamerica and very tough for stone, I also want to include jadeite weapons with -2 to breakage and +1 to break non-jadeite weapons when parrying a heavy jadeite one, a sort of orichalcum-lite. Jadeite would also benefit from being Fine or Very Fine normally. Does a CF of +19 seem reasonable for that?

[evileeyore]

My suggestion:

Sub in Obsidian weapons as steel, Stone as Cheap Steel. Bronze takes the place of Adamantite. Jadeite and other type stones take the place of Meteoric, being able to pierce magic and untouchable by foulness.

Just straight up file off the serial numbers and do a name switch without messing about with breakages or anything else.

Maybe leave pure Wooden weapons as the 'easily' breakable, cheap weapons they are as something to show the superiority of the PC's culture over the savages that 'can't even work stone and obsidian'.

And of course the more advanced and superior Incans with their Bronze can really shine.

[Cowrie]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

My suggestion:

Sub in Obsidian weapons as steel, Stone as Cheap Steel. Bronze takes the place of Adamantite. Jadeite and other type stones take the place of Meteoric, being able to pierce magic and untouchable by foulness.

Just straight up file off the serial numbers and do a name switch without messing about with breakages or anything else.

Maybe leave pure Wooden weapons as the 'easily' breakable, cheap weapons they are as something to show the superiority of the PC's culture over the savages that 'can't even work stone and obsidian'.

And of course the more advanced and superior Incans with their Bronze can really shine.

That seems like a good fix. I think I'll also leave bone as easily breakable, because I like the imagery of deep-jungle savage tribes with poorly-crafted bone spearpoints.

Also, in case anyone has input, I created a racial weapon modifier for one of the homebrew races in this setting, and I'd love someone else's thoughts on whether the price is appropriate.

Alux: Doubles the range of a blunt or light thrown weapon or projectile, and gives it +1 to damage. If a thrown weapon can be wielded in melee, this does not affect its melee combat statistics. Any crushing or piercing projectiles or thrown weapons: +9 CF.

I know it's arguably better than the RAW Elven modifier for a lower price, but my reasoning was most applicable weapons have a much smaller range than bows, plus, with missile weapons, it's not a one-time premium, you have to pay it for all ammo to get the benefit. Besides which, for regular slings, the benefits are exactly the same as those for the lead bullets available at higher TLs relative to the shaped sling stones it would be applied to.

On the note of sling ammo, historically, the Aztecs sometimes used hand-molded clay balls filled with obsidian flakes for that instead of stones. As I understand it, the clay balls exploded on impact, letting the sharp obsidian within fly like shrapnel. I'd love some suggestions for how to handle that sort of ammo, for both cost and damage.

[RyanW]

I'm reminded of Jadepunk, where various exotic (and color-coded) stones collectively called Jade fuel magictech devices.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Cowrie

On the note of sling ammo, historically, the Aztecs sometimes used hand-molded clay balls filled with obsidian flakes for that instead of stones. As I understand it, the clay balls exploded on impact, letting the sharp obsidian within fly like shrapnel. I'd love some suggestions for how to handle that sort of ammo, for both cost and damage.

Depends on ethnic cool you want it.

Straight up 'realistic': Add a follow-up 1 cutting damage.

Ethnic Cool: 1d-3 cut ex follow-up.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Just straight up file off the serial numbers and do a name switch without messing about with breakages or anything else

This is how I would go about it too. Simple, clean, fun.

One thing I might do, though, to bring the setting to life, is have warriors carry a small pouch of obsidian flakes and whatever sort of glue or tool (?) they use to affix the bits to their weapons. Then, instead of oiling and sharpening their blades during downtime, they replace shattered flakes. This would work well as simple background flavor to remind everyone of the nature of the setting. Or, if you wanted to add a mechanical element, you could say that after a battle, weapons do -1 damage (or whatever) until someone spends X minutes repairing them.

[(E)]

If you are interested I did some musing about the strength of wood here. It may have useful applications if you are using wooden armour.

[Mike_H]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

My suggestion:

Sub in Obsidian weapons as steel, Stone as Cheap Steel. Bronze takes the place of Adamantite. Jadeite and other type stones take the place of Meteoric, being able to pierce magic and untouchable by foulness.

Just straight up file off the serial numbers and do a name switch without messing about with breakages or anything else.

Maybe leave pure Wooden weapons as the 'easily' breakable, cheap weapons they are as something to show the superiority of the PC's culture over the savages that 'can't even work stone and obsidian'.

And of course the more advanced and superior Incans with their Bronze can really shine.

I would only for durability. Silica rich stone produce far sharper edges than steel or even titanium in real life but are far more brittle and prone to break when hit against something hard like bone depending on thickness of the stone. Also, those sharp edges are very serrated when flintknapped, which gives a far graver wound than a smooth edge of fresh flake.

Damage, well, I would add a couple of points depending on the material and type of damage.

[Cowrie]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Depends on ethnic cool you want it.

Straight up 'realistic': Add a follow-up 1 cutting damage.

Ethnic Cool: 1d-3 cut ex follow-up.

Well, it's DF, where cinematic-ness rules, so I think I'll definitely go with the ethnic cool version for cost, does $0.50 sound reasonable? That's a bit over eight times the cost of a shaped sling stone.

Originally Posted by Dalin

One thing I might do, though, to bring the setting to life, is have warriors carry a small pouch of obsidian flakes and whatever sort of glue or tool (?) they use to affix the bits to their weapons. Then, instead of oiling and sharpening their blades during downtime, they replace shattered flakes. This would work well as simple background flavor to remind everyone of the nature of the setting. Or, if you wanted to add a mechanical element, you could say that after a battle, weapons do -1 damage (or whatever) until someone spends X minutes repairing them.

Good idea.

Originally Posted by (E)

If you are interested I did some musing about the strength of wood here. It may have useful applications if you are using wooden armour.

At the very least, there will be wooden helmets, so this may very well come in handy.

Originally Posted by Mike_H

I would only for durability. Silica rich stone produce far sharper edges than steel or even titanium in real life but are far more brittle and prone to break when hit against something hard like bone depending on thickness of the stone. Also, those sharp edges are very serrated when flintknapped, which gives a far graver wound than a smooth edge of fresh flake.

Damage, well, I would add a couple of points depending on the material and type of damage.

Fair point. Balance-wise, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have obsidian weapons, at least, deal a point or two of extra cutting and impaling damage, since it would make up for the PCs being less well-armored. Either normal damage for stone and jadeite, and +1 damage for obsidian, or +1 damage for stone and jadeite and +2 for obsidian.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Cowrie

Well, it's DF, where cinematic-ness rules, so I think I'll definitely go with the ethnic cool version for cost, does $0.50 sound reasonable? That's a bit over eight times the cost of a shaped sling stone.

That's a decent price. It's not adding that much, especially when fighting DF monsters.

Fair point. Balance-wise, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have obsidian weapons, at least, deal a point or two of extra cutting and impaling damage, since it would make up for the PCs being less well-armored. Either normal damage for stone and jadeite, and +1 damage for obsidian, or +1 damage for stone and jadeite and +2 for obsidian.

If you go that route I'd make Obsidian +1 (maybe +1 per die*). Leave Stone as the "poor man's" weapon, and Jadeite/Gemstone as the "does cool stuff" stones.



* This gives some warriors a reason to prefer it to the superior Bronze.