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Old 02-01-2016, 08:46 PM   #11
Yako
 
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Default Re: Altered Time Rate as Psionic Power

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
If you want to bring the price lower, I recommend Maximum Duration (from GURPS Power-Ups 8: Limitations). You could limit your ATR to only last for a matter of seconds for -75%, after which it would need five minutes to recharge (effectively restricting it to once per fight).

It would technically be double-dipping to also put Costs Fatigue on there, especially if you've limited it to under a minute, but something like "Nuisance Effect, Costs 1d FP at the end of use" (-5%) would be a reasonable addition -- one that hits the -80% maximum discount.
Is it not a bit too much of a discount though?

With your houserules (the -40% limitation version), you would get a very similar duration, just that the effective recovery time would be longer (your usual fatigue regeneration) and you get the extra drawback of not having fatigue for other things.

I have never ever felt like a built with maximum duration was ever in any way fairly priced... ^^ ;



Also, given tat switchable ailities which costs fatigue every turn also means one turn just to activate it, how would you price it so that activating the ability becomes a free action or reflexxive in that case without ending up with paying more (because at least standard rules costs fatigue per second is less of a discount than reduced time would be) for an ability that is less useful than one which is always on?
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:00 PM   #12
Edges
 
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Default Re: Altered Time Rate as Psionic Power

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I have never ever felt like a built with maximum duration was ever in any way fairly priced... ^^ ;
I hear ya. This thread goes into it.
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Old 02-01-2016, 11:10 PM   #13
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Altered Time Rate as Psionic Power

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I always felt Costs Fatigue was priced wrong, but couldn't quite figure out what was bugging me about it until now.

I feel like it should have an up front negative higher, but be lower as you add more FP. After so many FP I almost feel like it's pointless to give a negative impact.

"Oh, it takes 20 instead of 18... so another 10%" makes my eyes go O_o
Well, some Limitations are problematic.

I'm unhappy with Costs FP, and severely unhappy with Limited Use.

I don't have any kind of general-purpose ability modifier system in my homebrew RPG, because I don't want to go there, it's a very tricky place, but I've thought a little bit about how that particular aspect of GURPS might be improved, and the least bad type of solution I've arrived at, so far, is to divide all Advantages into numerous categories, anywhere from 2 to 4 (or 5 if absolutely necessary) as needed and then define each category as having its own modifiers for the problem Limitations such as Costs FP and Limited Use.

And yes, as you say, drop the principle of linearity. Costs FP makes no sense at linear cost. The very first FP paid to activate an ability is a big Limitation, and it doesn't become twice as big just because you have to pay 2 FP. Likewise, costs to activate an Advantage, to enter a "state" (e.g. a state of "being faster") are much less harsh than a cost you have to pay on an on-going basis, e.g. per 10 minutes or per minute or per 10 seconds or per second.

Both solutions show that the only way to improve this aspect of GURPS' ability creation/modification game mechancis is to be willing to sacrifice simplicity in exchange for fairer pricing, for a system that better recognizes that when you put a gimp on an ability then the cost of that ability needs to be reduced appropriately (the test scenario is a campaign in which the players can buy off these gimps freely with earned experience points - my claim is that a great many players will then be very quick to buy off -5% or -10% Costs FP Limitations because getting rid of those Limitations drastically empowers their characters for a very low cost, enabling them to much more freely use those formerly FP-Limited abilities, with another example being One-College Magery).
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Old 02-01-2016, 11:12 PM   #14
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Altered Time Rate as Psionic Power

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I hear ya. This thread goes into it.
I'm not even sure that's the only thread asking about that Limitation. It's from 2013 and I seem to recall the issue having been discussed in a thread earlier than that. Possibly one started by me.
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Old 02-02-2016, 07:49 AM   #15
Lia Valenth
 
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Default Re: Altered Time Rate as Psionic Power

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
...
I'm unhappy with Costs FP, and severely unhappy with Limited Use.
....
I completely agree. I have been working on a single limitation that includes the effects of Maximum Duration, Takes Recharge, Limited Use, Costs Fatigue, etc. By combining all of them into one it can remove the problems that you can either buy Costs Fatigue 1 [with standard 10FP and normal regeneration] so an ability can be up for a maximum of 10 minutes, then down for at least 20 minutes, 100 minutes without a skill to decrease it, for -5% (ignoring the penalties for low fatigue, making this even worse). Or you can take Maximum Duration {10 minutes on, 5 minutes off} for -50%.

My solution for most of them is fairly easy: divide the (time it can be on) by (time it takes before usable again), then use the Accessibility limitation as a guideline for how much it costs. For Example: Limited Use 1/day on an attack that can be use once, so for 1 second, with a 24 hour recharge allows its use 1/(24*3600)=0.0012% of the time, making it worth -65%. If the ability is flight that works for 1 minute/day that's 1/(24*60) = 0.07% for -60%.

If it can be used multiple times during this it is worth less. If it can be used twice it is worth 5% less, 3-4 times 10% less, 5-8 15% less, and 9-10 20% less. No ability can be takes at more than 10 uses/time period. So the attack 2/day is -60%, 3-4/day is -55%, 5-8/day is -50%, and 9-10/day is -45%.

This also means that Maximum Duration 30 Seconds (30/(5*60)) = 10%, for -40% and Maximum Duration 15 seconds (15/(5*60)) = 5%, for -45%.

Cost Fatigue is much more complicated, and still does not work in my system. Currently I am thinking that, within my system, Cost FP should be removed and only Cost ER should be allowed, because not having penalties for low ER makes it much easier to price than FP. Working on it though.
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Last edited by Lia Valenth; 02-02-2016 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 02-02-2016, 08:09 AM   #16
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Default Re: Altered Time Rate as Psionic Power

What I saw of River's abilities often looked like Danger Sense. I don't think I saw her being aware that someone was present who was totally concealed from her senses. She did a few things that looked like forms of telepathy, but characteristically with people she was aware of.
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:00 AM   #17
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Altered Time Rate as Psionic Power

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
If you want to bring the price lower, I recommend Maximum Duration (from GURPS Power-Ups 8: Limitations). You could limit your ATR to only last for a matter of seconds for -75%, after which it would need five minutes to recharge (effectively restricting it to once per fight).

It would technically be double-dipping to also put Costs Fatigue on there, especially if you've limited it to under a minute, but something like "Nuisance Effect, Costs 1d FP at the end of use" (-5%) would be a reasonable addition -- one that hits the -80% maximum discount.
Shouldn't there also be a Psionic, -10% modifier in there? Also if we're doing this Psionic Powers style, Requires IQ roll, -10%.
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