So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

[jeff_wilson]

Another gadget solution is to have a weapon constructed so that it does not lay flat on the ground, like the basket hilt I mentioned, or having more than one pair of quillons, so that it lies with the grip angled upward and at least a few inches above the ground, so that it can be easily grasped, then elevated, instead of the reverse order.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Dropping and standing as separate actions doesn't do this.

An action starts when you decide to do it, not when the foot is actually lifted or whatever -- the leaning and so on is part of the time requirement

You're segmenting actions far more than the system assumes, then. GURPS assumes a continuous flow that's retroactively black-boxed when describing the battle from a later point in time. A sprawl forward and leap up in succession aren't two actions, just a single somersault resolved with a couple of game mechanics . . . and fighters are assumed to be in constant motion, stepping and possibly bouncing around a yard or so in any direction, not still (that's why a random attack can hit a foot or a head, a left arm or a right arm, why Dodge works vs. bullets, and why retreating is considered "okay" even if you've used full Move). I suppose one could consider each dice roll or decision a discrete action, but the game really, truly doesn't – it merely uses a finite time mesh to gauge the number of dice rolls and judgment calls needed to cover what's actually meant to be a continuum.

Frankly, I don't see "standing starts" having much to do with GURPS combat.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

You're segmenting actions far more than the system assumes, then.

Mechanically speaking, GURPS lets you declare actions once per turn, without being dependent on what you did in prior turns. The intent may be a 'continuous flow', but the game mechanics do not support that intent.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Frankly, I don't see "standing starts" having much to do with GURPS combat.

GURPS allows moving in any direction, deciding the direction on your turn (yes, not at the same speed, but that's purely a function of facing). That requires a stationary start -- otherwise you would only be permitted to move in specific directions.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Chris

JThat's what makes me think of this as cinematic: not that it can only be done in movies, but that in real life, who is going to bother teaching such a technique?

A technique for it might well be cinematic (like, say, Dual-Weapon Attack), but trying at -5 not so much (like, say, Dual-Weapon Attack). The parallel works well - a kickup might be 1 point Unusual Training perk that justifies a limited version and a technique to do so.

The PCs in my game just buy lanyards, buy high DX, and/or do the crouching one instead.

Also, they carry spare weapons (the swordsman, the archers) or are a weapon (the martial artist.) Fast-Draw is faster, and carrying two swords into battle isn't crazy, or unrealistic, just not common.

[DAT]

[QUOTE=DAT;1646629]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAT
I've allowed a single second recovery using an acrobatic rollout (roll down, pickup, and stand), having only dodge as a defense.
[QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kromm;1646629]That's a lot of action for one second! Breaking it down in terms of Martial Arts, p. 98: You can dive forward from standing to crawling as your entire step. You could later use Acrobatic Stand to spring from crawling to standing as another step. You could associate either step with a Ready maneuver, of course . . . but if you did both in a turn, you would be taking two steps, not one. That's normally the purview of Committed Attack, so I'd allow all this as a kind of "Committed Ready," but I'd impose the same limitations on defenses: no parry with the readying hand, -2 on all other defenses (dodge, block or parry with the other hand, etc.), and no retreat possible.
...[QUOTE]

Yes, a lot of action, but the move is based on a real life martial arts maneuver that does take about a second. The momentum of the rollout is used to make the stand much easier. Grabing the weapon on the way past is the hard part, at least for people who haven't practised it.

The inital acrobatic roll I treated as the start for an Acrobatic Dodge (B. p375), so success equaled a normal Dodge. Failure would be ugly. I made the weapon grab/pickup a DX-4 roll.
-Dan

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The by-the-book rules make it a two-second process:

Second 1: Assume a kneeling posture next to the item. This calls for a Change Posture maneuver. See p. B383. While kneeling, you may try any defense at -2, but since you don't have the weapon yet, you can't use it to parry.

Second 2: Ready the item while standing up. This calls for a Ready maneuver. Per p. B366, no roll is required to pick up a weapon that's just sitting there . . . just say "I pick it up." Per p. B364, you may stand up as the "step" part of your Ready. At this stage you're standing and have full defenses, and can parry with the weapon you just readied.

Only bother with rolls to grab an object when it's a moving or resisting foe, or when you're in close combat and need to roll vs. DX to get your hand in the right place (p. B391). But 95% of the time, you'll just go "I Change Posture next to the sword. I stand up and Ready the sword."

Sorry just quickly but a full change position action to Kneel seems a bit harsh for picking something up off of the ground. If for no other reason I can't remember the last time I had to actually kneel down to pick something off of the floor rather than just crouch or stoop to do so (assuming something I'm not going to have 'lift with the legs' at least).

Is this just to make the point that it's more involved than just readying the weapon, and that a crouch to pick something up is more of disadvantage in combat than a regular combat crouch?

I guess as an alternative I would probably do it as one second ready action including a crouch, but the weapon would count as unready for that second and person doing it would count as crouching. Just to make the point that it's not a basic ready action.

(Crouch is basically free in terms of a action, but does cost a -1/2 hex, so you couldn't do it with a step as well, IIRC?)

I might also rule that if you did defend at any point during that, you have to then make a roll to pick up the weapon due to the distraction (or have them take a -1/-2* to defence and not have to roll to pick up)!

*-1 for a one handed weapon, -2 for a two handed one

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DAT

Yes, a lot of action, but the move is based on a real life martial arts maneuver that does take about a second.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you that it's possible in a second! I'm just saying that it shouldn't be easy and definitely ought to worsen defenses . . . there's no way I'm going to buy that it's an Acrobatic Dodge which makes you harder to hit. It involves a very predictable trajectory without your feet under you to make corrections and with your vision unavoidably turned away from your direction of motion for some time. A skilled foe will have a party at your expense. I'd go with what I recommended:

Originally Posted by Kromm

You can dive forward from standing to crawling as your entire step. You could later use Acrobatic Stand to spring from crawling to standing as another step. You could associate either step with a Ready maneuver, of course . . . but if you did both in a turn, you would be taking two steps, not one. That's normally the purview of Committed Attack, so I'd allow all this as a kind of "Committed Ready," but I'd impose the same limitations on defenses: no parry with the readying hand, -2 on all other defenses (dodge, block or parry with the other hand, etc.), and no retreat possible.

Which is to say, this "rolling Ready" would require an Acrobatics-6 roll to execute (like any Acrobatic Stand), with any failure meaning you end up sitting instead of standing. Succeed or fail, you would also end up with no parry with the readying hand, -2 on all other defenses (dodge, block or parry with the other hand, etc.), and no retreat possible. Optionally, you could go "all-out" for +4, as the rules for Acrobatic Stand suggest; in that case, the roll would be just Acrobatics-2 and have the same consequences on a failure, but whatever happened, you would have no defenses at all.

—

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Is this just to make the point that it's more involved than just readying the weapon, and that a crouch to pick something up is more of disadvantage in combat than a regular combat crouch?

This is pretty much an issue of system granularity. What GURPS calls a "crouch" is in no way low enough to let you touch ground. It brings your hands down to knee level at most, and perhaps not even that much . . . it could conceivably mean a slight bend in the knees and at the waist, with the head kept down, as opposed to a natural, upright walking posture. What GURPS calls "kneeling" is anything lower than that but not so low it's a crawl, including any posture where one or both knees or one or both hands touch the ground, or where one's rear end is so low that it touches one or both heels. You need the latter (kneeling) by definition, because it's the posture that lets you touch ground with a hand. That's what I was getting at here:

Originally Posted by Kromm

The GURPS crouch is shallow, minimally reducing movement (to 2/3 normal), allowing full defenses, and permitting a retreat. A deep crouch – haunches to heels and/or hand on the ground – is lumped in with kneeling in GURPS, and explains why kneeling still permits movement at 1/3 normal. The former might bring your hand to knee level; the latter is needed to touch ground.

[DouglasCole]

One of the reasons I went with a grab is that you can kneel as part of any maneuver that includes a step.

One thing we play with for fun is grabbing a weapon as part of a cartwheel. Maybe a diving grab and acrobatic stand.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kromm

This is pretty much an issue of system granularity. What GURPS calls a "crouch" is in no way low enough to let you touch ground. It brings your hands down to knee level at most, and perhaps not even that much . . . it could conceivably mean a slight bend in the knees and at the waist, with the head kept down, as opposed to a natural, upright walking posture. What GURPS calls "kneeling" is anything lower than that but not so low it's a crawl, including any posture where one or both knees or one or both hands touch the ground, or where one's rear end is so low that it touches one or both heels. You need the latter (kneeling) by definition, because it's the posture that lets you touch ground with a hand. That's what I was getting at here:

This may depend on individual proportions, but my hands reach to knee level with minimal hunching that probably shouldn't be within the upper bound of a crouch but can't possibly be the lower bound.

Of course, there's a considerable bit of distance from those knees to the ground!

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

This may depend on individual proportions, but my hands reach to knee level with minimal hunching that probably shouldn't be within the upper bound of a crouch but can't possibly be the lower bound.

Of course, there's a considerable bit of distance from those knees to the ground!

I think the point is, if a human can touch the ground with a hand, it's effectively "kneeling" in GURPS terms.

Originally Posted by Kromm

This is pretty much an issue of system granularity. What GURPS calls a "crouch" is in no way low enough to let you touch ground. It brings your hands down to knee level at most, and perhaps not even that much . . . it could conceivably mean a slight bend in the knees and at the waist, with the head kept down, as opposed to a natural, upright walking posture. What GURPS calls "kneeling" is anything lower than that but not so low it's a crawl, including any posture where one or both knees or one or both hands touch the ground, or where one's rear end is so low that it touches one or both heels. You need the latter (kneeling) by definition, because it's the posture that lets you touch ground with a hand. That's what I was getting at here:

So a GURPS "crouch" looks like this (person on left facing camera):
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...tester-009.jpg

While something like this would be called a "kneel" in GURPS, even though there's no knee contact with the ground:
http://static4.depositphotos.com/101...Sporty-guy.jpg