[DF] Mystic Archer Powerups

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Onkl

That's the Lens I am talking about. What you say makes sense, but niche protection is important. If you can take the upgrades from the Scout powerups, the Scout template as is gets driven into the outdoor archer niche, as a Mystic Archer would "normally" in the dungeon be very much more desirable. So why would anyone play a Scout - if the campaign isn't set in the wilderness?

In my view, this is a feature and not a bug. If the GM isn't planning any wilderness adventures, the Scout's wilderness abilities go to waste anyway. So if the answer is, "I want to play a Scout because I want to be an awesome archer, but there aren't any other template choices that allow the abilities I want," then it seems like an arbitrary limitation which is keeping a player from making the character that he wants to play. If he makes a by-the-book Scout, he just has to eat the cost of the wilderness abilities that won't see much use.

IMO, niche protection is only important for niches that are occupied by an actual PC in the current party. Forbidding a Mystic Archer from stepping into the Scout's niche when there is no Scout in the party seems rather arbitrary and pointless to me.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

In my game, I have a scout/mystic knight/wizard (over 750 points right now), and trust me, Imbuements complement bow users very well.

Exactly. And this is why maintaining strict niche protection in the absence of an actual PC filling the niche strikes me as a little silly -- and futile. If the only difference between a 750-point Knight-Wizard and a 750-point Wizard-Knight is which power-ups from DF11 they can have, then niche protection has failed, even in spite of arbitrary limitations on which power-ups are available based on the template you started with.

[Dammann]

My impression was that a Mystic Archer is pretty much a Scout minus outdoor abilities plus Imbuements. I would think that any Scout power-Ups that address efficacy with the bow are fair, while those that enhance outdoor capability are off-theme.

There is a lot of overlap between templates anyway, when it comes to niche protection. Swashbucklers and Knights and Barbarians all do melee, Barbarians, Druids, and Scouts all have wilderness competency, Thieves, Wizards and Scouts all have scouting/pointman abilities available or inherent. This is sort of necessary if you aren't going to require a four man team to do anything, with prescribed templates.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Munin did Pyramid-quality work in this thread for Mystic Archers.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by CousinX

Exactly. And this is why maintaining strict niche protection in the absence of an actual PC filling the niche strikes me as a little silly -- and futile.

I disagree here. I don't mind people spreading out into other domains rather than their primary one to shore up missing elements within a group - but throwing a professions niche protection out the window simply because no one in the group is currently that profession is bad form.

It is not exactly uncommon for new characters to join an adventuring party, especially when they've suffered deaths within the party or members voluntarily leave for greener and less dangerous pastures. It is therefore important to keep those fences between the professions shticks in place, as someone might want a change of pace and choose a profession previously unaccounted for within the group.

This is not to say wizards can't learn to use a bow, or even get very good at using one. It just means that unless the wizard also dedicates their time to master the broader arts of the quintessential Scout, they're not getting access to any of the Scouts personal toys.

Originally Posted by CousinX

If the only difference between a 750-point Knight-Wizard and a 750-point Wizard-Knight is which power-ups from DF11 they can have, then niche protection has failed

Originally Posted by Dammann

There is a lot of overlap between templates anyway, when it comes to niche protection. Swashbucklers and Knights and Barbarians all do melee, Barbarians, Druids, and Scouts all have wilderness competency, Thieves, Wizards and Scouts all have scouting/pointman abilities available or inherent. This is sort of necessary if you aren't going to require a four man team to do anything, with prescribed templates.

I think these two quotes underline the common miss-assumptions that surround the term "niche protection" (or at least, the way I interpret that term).

Niche protection is not a huge wall that keeps everyone else out of "your stuff" and applies to anything you might even vaguely do or the style in which you do it. Niche protection doesn't lock you in to the first singular profession you pick like an anchor, preventing you from broadening your skill set. Niche protection is basically just a way of calling dibs of a handful of specific and defining elements within a profession, which require the other baggage of said profession to master.

A 750 point character who has fully invested in Wizard and Knight can feel free to pick up any power-up from either profession (assuming they meet the other prerequisites, that is). However despite being a fighter who uses magic, that even sort of sounds like 'Mystic Knight' if you squint a little, they can't pick up any Mystic Knight power-ups until they purchase all the trimmings and trappings of that profession too.

The goal here is to basically say that specific advantages and powers (often power-ups or encapsulated power-sets) are synonymous with their respective professions.
Anyone can 'master' a bow, but only a Scout can truly master it by being able to fire two arrows at once, using only one hand and their teeth to draw the bow, and still hit a foe at 20 yards in the eyes and instantly kill them. Equally, anyone can use a little magic of one form or another, but only a Mystic Knight can channel magic through their weapons, body and armour in such a way as to turn anything they hold into a magical Swiss-army knife of utility.

Nothing stops someone becoming both, but they do have to master both arts first - which requires a few hundred extra character points to pull off. It also means that they still have a unique repertoire when compared to a similarly powerful Barbarian-Mystic Knight, or Scout-Holy Warrior. By mixing the unique elements of two different sources, they've created a unique cocktail that blends the two. This in turn reinforces and preserves the entire point of niche protections - which is simply being able to say during play "Well yes, you can fire a bow pretty well, but can you do this?" or "You call plinking little imbued arrows a good use of magic? Wait till you see what I can do with this greatsword and a reserve of 40HP using sacrificial imbuement!".

Niche protection doesn't say "noone else can be good at wilderness skills" or "noone else can swing a sword with skill" or "noone else can wear heavy armour". It says "noone else excels at all these things in quite the same way as I do, exemplified by my ability to do this".

I've run games with four different types of Barbarian-somethings, and each and everyone one felt unique and had their own 'niche', because each had their own set of powerful and meaningful options that wasn't duplicated in the other characters. That is what niche protection is for, to let people feel different and do impressive things that their companions can't do in quite the same way (which is not to say they don't have alternative methods of producing similar outcomes in equally impressive ways, its just that they can't copy you exactly). This allows players to have situations where their character can step up to the plate and be showered in limelight because their specific portfolio of powers performs perfectly here - and then, when the scene changes, so does the focus of limelight, because someone else now has the 'perfect' solution to this problem.

Anyway, I'm rambling now - so I'll shut up.

[SCAR]

Part of the issue with the Mystic Archer, is that they start out as a Scout Lens, so it's easy to assume they're a Scout who can use Imbuements.

While they're based on a Scout, they're not a complete Scout:
..a normal scout who doesn't focus their attention on wilderness and survival skills, but purely on archery..

The original Mystic Knight was a full template, not a Knight Lens, so it's clearer that they are a distinct Template/Niche.


Compare this to the Dungeon Saint which is a Cleric Lens. Without Power Investiture, the Saint can't use any of the 'Spell' power-ups listed for Clerics.

In Pyramid#50-Dungeon Fantasy II, the Author (Antoni Ten Munros/Kuroshima) explicitly covers what 'Cleric' Power-Ups (from DF11) the Saints can have - some of the 'power' ones are modified to be Learned Prayers, and some just aren't available. Saints also get their own unique Power-Ups.


All that's needed is to write up the available list of Power-Ups for Mystic Archer (and Mystic Sworsdman) in the same style, including the relevant/suitable items from DF11 (for Scout and Swashbuckler respectively), and those from Pyramid#60-Dungeon Fantasy III (which Kuroshima has already indicated up-thread were designed to be suitable for other Imbuement users)!

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

It is not exactly uncommon for new characters to join an adventuring party, especially when they've suffered deaths within the party or members voluntarily leave for greener and less dangerous pastures. It is therefore important to keep those fences between the professions shticks in place, as someone might want a change of pace and choose a profession previously unaccounted for within the group.

I couldn't have said it as beatifully as PseudoFenton did here. This is exactly what I think..

We try to play DF as close to RAW as possible because everybody in the group GMs... we rotate this task so everyone gets to play for 6-8 weeks and then gms for 2-4 weeks.

Whenever we stray from RAW, we as a group must all be in accordance with these changes, or the changing GM thingy won't work. Before I even allow a Mythic Anything, all the gms (and thus all the players) have to be ok with introducing Imbuements into the campaign world.

Also, we have a lot of people joining and leaving our game all the time. And I want the Scout - as a class - to still be a strong contender... and not an afterthought à la:"You want to play ranged damage? You must choose a mythic archer... the Scout? No... it's just a version of the Mythic Archer without all the magic gimmicks, thus weaker"

I admit, it was my fault for not mentioning these preconditions when I started this thread.

Cheers

Onkl

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Munin did Pyramid-quality work in this thread for Mystic Archers.

While this thread really is good, it also assumes that the Mystic Archer can take all the Scout Powerups... and that I don't want.

Originally Posted by Munin

The power-ups below are additions to the scout power-ups found in DF3 and DF11. Scout power-ups are also available to any character that started with a scout lens, such as the mystic archer (Pyramid #3/36, p. 27).

Thanks anyway! :)

Cheers

[Kuroshima]

Onkl, the question here is what makes the mystic archer special. It's his skill with the bow (1)? It's being able to Imbue (2)? It's blending archery and Imbuements (3)?

If 1, then he gets Scout Power-Ups only.
If 2, then he gets Mystic Knight Power-Ups only.
If 3, then you must come with a list that has a little from both lists.

I didn't write the Mystic Archer and Mystic Swordsman, so I can only guess on the original author's intentions. My point of view is that he's an Imbuement user first, and an archer second. This means that he should get Mystic Knight Power-Ups. You don't need Scout Power-Ups to be a competent Archer. Heroic Archer already lets you do a lot of the tricks scouts do. Scouts do them better, but Mystic Archers have other goodies.

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Onkl, the question here is what makes the mystic archer special. It's his skill with the bow (1)? It's being able to Imbue (2)? It's blending archery and Imbuements (3)?

If 1, then he gets Scout Power-Ups only.
If 2, then he gets Mystic Knight Power-Ups only.
If 3, then you must come with a list that has a little from both lists.

I didn't write the Mystic Archer and Mystic Swordsman, so I can only guess on the original author's intentions. My point of view is that he's an Imbuement user first, and an archer second. This means that he should get Mystic Knight Power-Ups. You don't need Scout Power-Ups to be a competent Archer. Heroic Archer already lets you do a lot of the tricks scouts do. Scouts do them better, but Mystic Archers have other goodies.

I choose option 2 :) To me regarding our campaign, it makes the most sense...

But I also know that this might not be the case in another campaign where you know what 4 people playing what 4 characters will be sitting around the table half a year from now.

This is just GURPS I guess... or what makes GURPS hard: To find the rules and play the game the way it is right for your group. So, live and let live! ;)

Cheers and thanks for all the contributions!

Onkl

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Onkl

I choose option 2 :) To me regarding our campaign, it makes the most sense...

But I also know that this might not be the case in another campaign where you know what 4 people playing what 4 characters will be sitting around the table half a year from now.

This is just GURPS I guess... or what makes GURPS hard: To find the rules and play the game the way it is right for your group. So, live and let live! ;)

Cheers and thanks for all the contributions!

Onkl

Personally, I would build Mystic Archers with the Archer template from Henchmen and the Eldritch initiate lens from Pyramid #3/60, but I am biased, I love the flexibility given by the henchmen templates ;-)