DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[JMason]

The swashbuckler "wins" DF. Even after nixing my house rule for Luck due to it being too powerful, I still find it near impossible to throw anything at the group that the swashbuckler can't take down single handed.

Part of the problem is that the group lacks the diversity to deal with other challenges. If the swashbuckler can't handle it, none can. The wizard and cleric specialize in some buffs and missile spells. The Knight is just a heavily armored fighter. None have magic items (they've sold quest rewards magic weapons).

So things immune to normal weapons and missile spells are going to wipe the group, flying monsters rely on the squishy casters to take out (and unless totally stupid would target them first).

Everything else is sliced to death by the swashbuckler with him never breaking a sweat.

He has Ambidexterity, Combat Reflexes, Extra Attack, Weapon Master, Extraordinary Luck, Weapon Bond, and 24 skill in Saber (+1 for WB on first attack).

A normal turn might be a deceptive attack at 16 (for the max -5 to defense), followed by 4 rapid strikes at 15 skill each. This is an average of 50 damage (2d6+4 x5) for the turn. This works against groups and solo targets alike.

If anything gets a chance to hit him, he parries at 16. If it is too heavy to parry, he can retreat and dodge at 14.

Pretty much only ambushes and spells can hit him at all, and he has luck to use for that rare contingency.

So I am at a bit of a loss with what to do. More enemies just means that combat take a bit longer, but the threat is never very high for this character. Enemies that are resistant to his attacks are going to be resistant to the others as well. The few things that might not be a cake walk end up going down with the rest of the group focusing on them, or buffing the swashbuckler to doing even more damage.

Throwing something with a special weakness is usually discovered by the wizard or cleric's Hidden Lore skills, and they send in the SW with the added effect or knowledge.

All of this just seems to have made combat boring... almost a waste of time. Why bother if the SW is going to be able to take down everything without any risk?

If anyone has any idea of what I might try, to CHALLENGE this character (not looking to right out neutralize or kill him). This is a combat focused game, and arguably the most combat focused character... so combat should be fun and exciting, not just "I win. I win. I win."

[Phantasm]

He's doing 11 damage on average per hit before DR and damage multipliers; how well armored are the bad guys you're putting him up against?

One thing about swashbucklers and other light weapon wielders: they have to go for the chinks in heavy armor in order to penetrate, and/or take penalties to hit the unarmored locations.

[LemmingLord]

Two words: rust (wait for it) monster.

[aesir23]

Increase DR of enemies. (So the Swashbuckler has to target chinks and/or wait for a lucky roll.)

Increase number of enemies. (So the other players have to defend themselves while the Swashbuckler deals with others.)

[mlangsdorf]

A Ciuacla (DF Monsters 1 p7) should pretty much pin down that swashbuckler forever - he'll hit it with most of his attacks, but it has DR12 against cutting attacks and can ignore them. It isn't particularly likely to hit with its attacks, but 3d+2 cr + 1d+4 tox gives him a hefty risk if one those attacks do get through.

A swarm of Doomchildren (DF2 p22) will probably give him trouble. He can't have that much DR if he's only ST13 or 14 and not suffering encumbrance penalties, and you can't dodge shrapnel (the knight, who presumably has DR5+, won't care).

An electric jelly (DF Monsters 1 p13) is a challenge for any delving party. Hitting the monster 5 times isn't a great idea when each of those hits does 1d+2 damage back to you.

Golem-Armor Swordsmen (DF2 p24) have DR17 and credible attacks. Again, they probably won't kill him, but they'll tie him up for a while.

Putting a horrid skull (DF Monsters 1 p19) in an area that only the swashbuckler can quickly reach while everyone is being swarmed by monsters gives the swashbuckler a choice - die slowly from the psionic scream or abandon his allies to deal with the skull. My F2F group had to face one of these a couple of sessions ago, backed by a horde of zombies, and it was a tough fight.

A couple uparmored Stone Golems (DF2 p26) each have DR9 and 30 HP: it'll take at around 3-4 rounds for the swashbuckler to kill each one, and if they get in close and grapple him, he's basically screwed.

Challenging him with a Sword Spirit (DF Monsters 1 p29) is thematically appropriate.

It doesn't matter how hard you hit an Undead Slime (DF Monsters 1 p32), it's diffuse and only takes 2 damage per hit.

A Watcher at the End of Time (DF Monsters 1 p34) has enough attacks to force that swashbuckler to use up all his parries and can attack from unfavorable angles. Again, the knight probably has enough DR to pretty much ignore the silly thing, but the swashbuckler might be in trouble.

In summary: foes with stupid high levels of skill and attacks, or insane amounts of DR and HP, or aura damage or other automatic damage, or who are diffuse, are going to be a problem for this guy. There area a lot of published monsters like that, so use them.

Also, even in a combat focused game, you're not obligated to cater to your PC's decision not to diversify. Put some orc archers on top of a wall and shoot the PCs with impunity - and let them get behind those orc archers only by going through the Caverns of Sword-Armor Golems. Put a rich treasure chest in a room and have it defended by some flaming skulls and a couple of toxifiers. Not all challenges need to be defeatable by the group's current configuration.

Also, even in a combat focused game, you need other challenges. If you let the swashbuckler spend all of his experience on being more dangerous in combat, then he's going to be more dangerous. Throw in some social challenges, movement challenges, riddles, evil runes, whatever and make him spread his points around.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by JMason

He has Ambidexterity, Combat Reflexes, Extra Attack, Weapon Master, Extraordinary Luck, Weapon Bond, and 24 skill in Saber (+1 for WB on first attack).

A normal turn might be a deceptive attack at 16 (for the max -5 to defense), followed by 4 rapid strikes at 15 skill each. This is an average of 50 damage (2d6+4 x5) for the turn. This works against groups and solo targets alike.

A few things don't seem quite right here.

Firstly, Weapon Bond affects more than just your first attack. It raises your effective skill with that weapon, which means skill 25 at all times with his Weapon Bonded weapon.

Secondly, he can't be rolling against 16 and apply -5 to defense. A deceptive attack for -5 requires a -10 penalty, but his skill is only 25. So either he should be rolling against 15 to get the -5, or he should be rolling against 16 and only have a -4.

[Novembermike]

I'm kind of curious about the point totals for each character. Has he gotten a lot more points somehow? Otherwise, have the other characters not put their points into combat stats?

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

A few things don't seem quite right here.

Firstly, Weapon Bond affects more than just your first attack. It raises your effective skill with that weapon, which means skill 25 at all times with his Weapon Bonded weapon.

Secondly, he can't be rolling against 16 and apply -5 to defense. A deceptive attack for -5 requires a -10 penalty, but his skill is only 25. So either he should be rolling against 15 to get the -5, or he should be rolling against 16 and only have a -4.

And then where is he getting the four rapid strikes? Extra attack will give him one free attack, but he has to pay for the rest.

Or is he using the extra attack to make a deceptive attack (-5 to defense) followed by 4 rapid strikes (I get -9, one for free, and 3 rapid strikes each at -2 because he's a weapon master)

So 1 extra attack -5 to defense (15), and then one attack that's split into 4 rapid strikes for a total of -9 (16).

This means his opponent defends at -5, then at -0, -0, -0, -0. Frankly, in CBR, I saw stuff like this all the time. But I had a staff weilder walking around with a defense of 18. -5 would just drop him to 13, and the four rapid strikes wouldn't do a thing to him. Or heavily armored, healthy guys with a decent DR: 2d6+4 vs 4 DR = ~ 7-10 damage (cutting, right?). If he has 20+ HP, that's not even a stun, and if he has, say, 15 HP, that's a stun check, but he's at HT+4 to resist, so with a solid HT, he'll be fine. Subsequently, he'll parry all attacks no problem, and counter-attack with ease. Or just have a heavily armored character: a DR of 10 will take an average of 1 damage per hit from that attack, so that's... 5 damage. That's nothing, especially to a stone golem. I wouldn't even bother to defend, and just make an AoA-skilled with lots of deceptive attack on it to floor the Swashbuckler.

High skill/low damage can be dangerous, but it's not the end-all-be-all. High skill, high damage starts to approach it, but you need some way to survive the counter attack. The high DR monster is probably a good begining, especially if it's elemental in nature, as the mages will be needed to do some clever solution to make him vulnerable.

What's wrong with the knight? Why is he less lethal? My experience is those guys hit like a frickin' truck.

EDIT: I also suspect your problem is a creation of the players. Having realized that the swashbuckler is the pointy end of the party, the casters just focus on buffing him while the knight tanks stuff so the swashbuckler can focus unmolested on whatever he wants to be murdering at that moment. The reason your party falls apart whenever you disrupt the swashbuckler is because it is literally disrupting the whole party, because the party IS the swashbuckler. They orbit around him. Or so it sounds to me.

[Vynticator]

Defeat melee monsters like this with magic or psi. Also consider ranged attacks and/or fliers. I guess he has had to compromise on Will and IQ somewhat to pump his melee awesomeness. You might make use of Last Gasp with waves and waves of enemies so he takes the lead initially then gets completely fatigued and 'second rank' characters have to step in.

If it weren't Daftness Falls, I'd suggest running some heavily investigative and social adventures so characters who are a bit more rounded will flourish and he will be left standing mute, ready to slay enemies who never appear. But you chose the munchkin-friendly loot collection exercise, so hey, you narrowed your own options there.

[cbower]

An Ogre with high DR and a two handed flail?