Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > Roleplaying in General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-19-2017, 09:34 AM   #11
RogerBW
 
RogerBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: near London, UK
Default Re: Character arcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Same here. Of course, once the campaign is underway, my characters often make plans, short- or long-term, and try to act on them, but that's the character's plan, not mine.
Yup. When I bring a character into a game I usually have some drives and ambitions in mind, in part so that the GM can integrate them into the plot, but these can drift over time.
RogerBW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 12:34 PM   #12
alexondria
 
alexondria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Atlanta GA
Default Re: Character arcs

But a character arch isn't necessarily about what the character wants so much as the player. Maybe you make a character that had something happen that turned him into a coward in a game where danger can't just be avoided. Then over the course of the game you have little things happen or find reasons for him to push past the fear this one time. After doing that he starts to not be so cowardly. Perhaps you make a loaner in a team oriented game where as a player you know he's going to have to work as part of the team like it or not. Then as things progress you let him gradually learn the value of a good team. When I think about a pre-planned character arch those are the kind of things I think of. They seem simple, but the are big changes for the character. The may seem meaningless as they are mostly in the player's hands, but they do have enough moving parts to allow for other PCs to screw them up.
alexondria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 01:38 PM   #13
Michael Cule
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Default Re: Character arcs

As a players, a story arc emerges from what I know about (or discover about) the character and what the GM throws at me.

As a GM it's part of my job to give each player a chance at as much 'screen time' as they want (within reason) and to remember to give them a chance to resolve or develop things about their character that they are clearly interested in focussing on. That doesn't happen at the start of the campaign much but emerges from what the players show me.
__________________
Michael Cule,
Genius for Hire,
Gaming Dinosaur Second Class
Michael Cule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 01:40 PM   #14
Joe
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Character arcs

My first instinct is to chime in with everyone else and say "no way! My character has long-term plans, but I'm just playing it how it lays". Of course I never start play with a long arc of character development mapped out in advance. After all, as others have pointed out, it never pays to ignore the fact that half the fun of roleplaying comes from your lack of control over the story.

But on reflection, I think I probably often do have some fairly loose 'arcs', if you like, in my head while creating a character - and I'm certain I'm not alone in this. Zero-to-hero is the most common.

Just to take the most obvious examples, it's very normal to start off a campaign by thinking:
  • My PC is just a naive girl from the farm, unused to a life of adventure, so I'll have fun playing her as a naif. But I expect that by session 5 she'll have uncovered her magic powers/be used to wielding a sword/ whatnot, and I'll have fun playing her as a budding hero. If the campaign lasts long enough, then it'll eventually be fun to play her as a confident master-adventurer.
  • My PC is new to all this monster hunting stuff, so I expect to have fun playing "terrified" for the first few sessions; but the GM has told me that this is ultimately going to be a butt-kicking action campaign, so my PC is heading in the direction of "hard-headed hero".

Etc.

My point is just that these industry standard zero-to-hero stories imply arcs of character development - (albeit a very particular kind of character arc). If so, then starting play with some sort of character arc in mind is much more common than most of the comments here so far would imply.
__________________
My (ahem... hugely entertaining... ahem) GURPS blog: The Collaborative Gamer

Last edited by Joe; 03-19-2017 at 01:43 PM.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 02:15 PM   #15
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Character arcs

I suppose I do consider the possibility of character arcs when designing PCs, yes.

After all, taking a Disadvantage which amounts to a Fatal Flaw tends to be an implicit buy-in for a character arc where the character either learns the error of their ways or dies dramatically as the result of his or her poor choices.

I am usually the GM, but when I am a player, I will often discuss potential character arcs with the GM to give him ideas for furture plots.

I'll make explicit my character's in-game goals and to what extent I as the player actually share these goals and to what extent I would be perfectly happy for the true character arc to be something completely different, where my PC learns that their goals were wrong-headed, based on incomplete information or the results of Fatal Flaws s/he needs to confront.

Every time I float a potential character arc, I try to include multiple possibilities, all of which would appeal to me as character arcs. For example, I try to give examples of possilities that involve the PC succeeding at a goal, failing and possibly even having events render success and failure at a given task meaningless.

My most recent PC came with several potential character arcs inbuilt. Which one of them ends up being most important and how they turn out is heavily dependent on what the GM chooses to do with the setting and NPCs, the choices of other players and the success or failure of various Influence skills in play.

The PC had backstory involving unrequited love toward an important NPC around the backstory which gave them all superpowers, almost two decades ago, whom the characters would be meeting again in an insane asylum. She, in turn, was established before the start of play as pretty genuinely crazy and having spent all those years obsessed with another NPC, who bears all the signs of being the Big Bad, of the first 'season' at least.

While it was pretty clear that my PC would be emotionally affected by meeting her, it wasn't decided beforehand whether the character arc would be my PC finally getting over his feelings as he saw how impossible any relationship would be and/or taking on a more brotherly, protective role to make up for his perceived failure all those years ago, or an even more melodramatic love triangle with the Big Bad, where the PC is trying to save the budding supervillainess with the Power of Love.

Hell, or a heart-wrenching Shoot the Dog arc where he discovers that no matter how he felt for her once, she's a dangerous monster now and he'll have to kill her to save others. Or to save himself from Falling into Darkness.

The PC didn't take any game-mechanical trait specifically mentioning The One That Got Away, but his general Disadvantages made it pretty clear that he'd be easy for her to manipulate into helping her if she had any interest in that. Or, you know, get his help even if she wasn't trying to manipulate him.

I did declare to the GM that the PC would be reacting to her at an extra +3, over and above all the ways that my PCs' range of White Knight-ish Disdvantages made him react positively to Damsels in Distress, as if she had a Friend Perk for him. I also said that both me and my character hoped it was mutual, as the reason my PC was sent to talk to this inmate was specifically that the people sending him believed he had the best chance of managing friendly relations, but I wouldn't impose any restraints on the adventure by game-mechanical traits that would ensure that the NPC really was friendly.

Some nine sessions into the game, it's still not clear what arc we're on, though the brotherly thing would be considerably more creepy if it happened now, given that they've shared some distinctly un-sibling-like moments after being reunited.

Similarly, that same character has a Quirk-level* Hero Worship of another NPC, who might or might not be the real Big Bad. I asked the GM to make sure that the NPC had been a noble person once, for the trait to make sense, but that his moral standing now was up to the GM. Of course, I noted that it would make for much better drama if the NPC was a Well-Intentioned Extremist or even a Hero Antagonist, as the people whose side our PCs were on** weren't exactly morally upstanding.

Finally, I noted, as a personal desire for me as a player, that it would be most interesting if the answer to which side was 'right' was ambigious enough for no realistic choice under the circumstances to be truly satisfying.

It's thus entirely undecided whether my character will oppose his old commanding officer and his group of old comrades and friends, entirely against his personal inclination, or if he'll betray his word (a big no-no), his country (same) and risk his Dependants (yikes) by switching sides.

In both cases, I planned for a character arc that would involve these people and certain themes, but I didn't plan for any specific ending or even course for the arc to take. That will result organically from events in play.

*That's over and above that character, along with plenty of other Antagonist NPCs, being included in a Sense of Duty.
**By default and without much of a choice.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 02:27 PM   #16
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: Character arcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
As a players, a story arc emerges from what I know about (or discover about) the character and what the GM throws at me.

As a GM it's part of my job to give each player a chance at as much 'screen time' as they want (within reason) and to remember to give them a chance to resolve or develop things about their character that they are clearly interested in focussing on. That doesn't happen at the start of the campaign much but emerges from what the players show me.
Yeah, but you may also collude with the player to give thecharacter an arc. It's a mini-Destiny of sorts.
__________________
“When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius
Anders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2017, 08:04 PM   #17
Joe
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Character arcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
once the campaign is underway, my characters often make plans, short- or long-term, and try to act on them, but that's the character's plan, not mine.

I think of my characters as people within the setting, rather than components of a drama. Real life doesn't have plot arcs, and people usually hope to carry on living after dramatic events.
I like this last line of yours, John - partly because it makes me want to disagree (in a friendly way!)

It's true that real life doesn't have plot arcs - but then again, real life is not being conducted for the amusement of "players" who are secretly controlling things from behind the scenes. (Well, so far as I know, anyway...)

My point is that the analogy between in-game stuff and real-life stuff has real limits - and one of those limits is that it fails to account for the desires of the players. Which is unfortunate, since the desires of the players constitute the whole point of the exercise!

Over the years I've got the sense that in your group, the players tend to desire a fairly simulationist mode of play. This makes your comments, above, about treating the game as a simulation rather than a drama quite understandable. But surely there's also a narrativist element there? Even a slight one? After all, I also get the strong sense that you want to be simulating something fun, engaging, even dramatic, rather than just something real. To my mind this means that, to a certain extent, the game is a drama, from the players' perspective. I suspect that means there's got to be something like "plot" or "character development" going on.

I might be wrong, though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexondria View Post
But a character arc isn't necessarily about what the character wants so much as the player.
Amen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I am usually the GM, but when I am a player, I will often discuss potential character arcs with the GM to give him ideas for furture plots.

I'll make explicit my character's in-game goals and to what extent I as the player actually share these goals and to what extent I would be perfectly happy for the true character arc to be something completely different....
That strikes me as a damned good idea, and there's an excellent general point hiding behind it, which is that there's a big difference between the character's goals and the player's goals, and ultimately the player's goals are the most important.

I suspect this means that plot arcs, character development arcs, etc, are likely to be a feature of many (most?) games.
__________________
My (ahem... hugely entertaining... ahem) GURPS blog: The Collaborative Gamer
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2017, 03:23 AM   #18
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Character arcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post
It's true that real life doesn't have plot arcs - but then again, real life is not being conducted for the amusement of "players" who are secretly controlling things from behind the scenes. (Well, so far as I know, anyway...)
My problem with Bostrom's Simulation Hypothesis is that the results don't seem interesting enough for anyone to bother with.
Quote:
My point is that the analogy between in-game stuff and real-life stuff has real limits - and one of those limits is that it fails to account for the desires of the players. Which is unfortunate, since the desires of the players constitute the whole point of the exercise!
Well, no. At least, not consciously. Characters that I've got used to playing operate for me as secondary personalities, capable of wanting things that don't accord with my desires for an entertaining game. This is not unique to me, but reasonably common in the circles I play in. I've seen characters retire because adventuring was just too dangerous for their tastes. I have long-running characters whom I liked playing, but whom I can't play any more, because they've evolved to a point where I just don't understand their motives.
Quote:
Over the years I've got the sense that in your group, the players tend to desire a fairly simulationist mode of play. This makes your comments, above, about treating the game as a simulation rather than a drama quite understandable. But surely there's also a narrativist element there? Even a slight one? After all, I also get the strong sense that you want to be simulating something fun, engaging, even dramatic, rather than just something real. To my mind this means that, to a certain extent, the game is a drama, from the players' perspective. I suspect that means there's got to be something like "plot" or "character development" going on.
It depends what you mean by the G/N/S terms. I was an experienced roleplayer before I ever encountered them, and I don't consider treating them as different modes of gaming to be a good idea. Instead, to me they seem like different directions of effort, all of which can be used to make a game better.

A clearer idea of how the setting works and how characters relate to it ("simulation") makes the impact of the events within the setting stronger("narrative"), and increases my involvement with the game ("gamist"). That motivates me to improve the simulation and the narrative,. It's a virtuous spiral of increasing game quality.
johndallman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2017, 04:33 AM   #19
RogerBW
 
RogerBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: near London, UK
Default Re: Character arcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
It depends what you mean by the G/N/S terms. I was an experienced roleplayer before I ever encountered them, and I don't consider treating them as different modes of gaming to be a good idea. Instead, to me they seem like different directions of effort, all of which can be used to make a game better.
I have not seen a generally accepted definition (the Forge one seems to have little to do with the way I first met the terms), but I think it's used to point up how things are resolved when the directions conflict: should something happen as it would happen if the world being simulated were real, or as if the game were a dramatic presentation, or, well, "gamist" never really made sense to me and the people who cared about getting their numbers up have mostly moved over to computer games now anyway.

When the linear-story hero tries to sneak into a base, either he manages it, or he gets caught. He doesn't fail to bypass the outer ring of alarms and get casually shot by the guards. A narrativist GM/player composite might well dice or choose between those first two outcomes, with utter failure not even a possibility because this isn't a sufficiently dramatic point at which to fail. I tend to prefer a system in which characters can have a reasonable idea of their odds of success and have to make sensible choices about what to try.

I've run a game in which the long and detailed plan for a sneak attack on the enemy base worked, and in a film that would be anticlimactic; in a game with the right players that can be entirely satisfying.

An example of an extreme simulationist might be that story people sometimes tell about Space Master, where the GM made the group's pilot roll to get through a space hazard of some sort on the way to the adventure proper, he fumbled, and everybody died.
RogerBW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2017, 05:48 AM   #20
lachimba
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Sydney
Default Re: Character arcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
It's my own characters that I'm talking about.
What about yourself!?

I think I've planned out a character arc for myself.
lachimba is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
roleplaying

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.