The Future of the DFRPG

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Yes, I know it's a little premature, seeing as the DFRPG won't even come out for a few more months, but something mentioned in another thread got me thinking. Let's say that the box set hits the streets and sells well. Not Munchkin levels of selling well, but at or pleasantly above expectations. SJ Games isn't just going to leave it there. So what's next?

I'm seeing a few directions things can go:

• Customers are pointed in the direction of existing GURPS DF products. It's low cost to the publisher and minimizes system confusion, but it requires significant new investment by the customer in the Basic Set and learning a very slightly different system. Treating a successful DFRPG purely as a gateway product seems unlikely.
• Crunch-heavy. New "character class" templates, new spells, new monsters, new items, etc. GURPS has always been very good at crunch, so this seems a likely direction, but this would also seem to be moving towards what people complain about when they complain about GURPS (too many rules!), and I'm not sure "having good rules for X" is the road to new success. GURPS has had brilliant rules for X since forever, so perhaps we've already seen the limits of that strategy.
• Fluff-heavy. Adventures and, dare I say, a setting or settings. With a lot of the mechanical details locked down, this makes much more sense for the DFRPG than for GURPS in general, and in these days of building brands, this would seem to be an attractive way to go. You don't get t-shirts and figurines of "3d6, roll low" the way you do with "the land of X" and "I belong to the Y faction." However, SJ Games has not, alas, proved nearly as good at creating compelling settings as they have at creating good rules, and I can see some tensions--albeit not insurmountable ones--between DF's minimalist vision and the existence of concrete settings beyond the dungeon.
• All of the above. Most likely, but given the likelihood of a narrow pipeline, may, in the process of trying to be all things to all people (or, at least, many things to many people), end up not being quite enough for anyone.

I'll further propose that licensed products are a complete non-starter as the way forward. They might work as part of a wider product line, but they can't build the success of the DFRPG on somebody else's IP. Far too risky.

So what would people want to see down the line for the DFRPG? Let the irresponsible speculation and unreasonable demands begin!

[Bruno]

Regarding crunch books - historically, D&D splatbooks filled with crunchy stuff sell quite well. In addition DFRPG splatbooks aren't going to suffer from a drifting power curve, because they're anchored to the GURPS foundations under the hood which means good consistent rules for making up new crunchy stuff. That means quality can remain stable, unlike some periods of D&D and other RPGs where the temptation to make the new book full of more powerful things made players (and GMs) suspicious.

I'm seeing the Denizens line being done for the DFRPG, possibly with a little appendix for the full GURPS rules. This would require a revision of the Denizens: Barbarians book (And Ninjas, which is basically a Denizens book), but that's safer than leaving it out, IMO.

The Denizens line in particular seems like an attractive target as it's "More stuff about my character", which means it will sell well to players as much as the GMs. These lines are crunchy, for certain - the Barbarians book is very crunchy - but there's room for less crunchy content in these books as well. It's also a largely unexplored product line, which means it's easier to sell to existing GURPS DF players in parallel with your DFRPG players.

Products that can be sold to players have a four to six times larger market than products that can only be sold to GMs, so you can afford somewhat more specialized items.

A related line would be "racial" Denizens lines, which would be good places to introduce racial character templates, like the dwarf from Pyramid. This would probably be more effective if done with batches of races per book - unless the idea is small 16-24 page PDFs each. The Big Book Of Elves, with a whole bunch of variant elf lenses, seems like a particularly attractive target.

On the GM side of things: monsters, treasure, more monsters, more treasure - while GMs are a fraction of the market, you'll probably get good saturation of your GM population with these standby products that have a lot of repeat utility.


EDIT: I want to point out that "crunch" does not need to mean "New rules for X". Big lists of monsters with information about their battle tactics and preferred environment/treasure aren't, IMO, "new rules", even if they tend to a high crunch content (you can squeeze fluff into the descriptions though!). DFM 2: Icky Goo is a bit of an outlier in that it's a serious build-your-own-monster kit, but it's also damned funny.
I'm not sure monster statblocks or treasure count as "rules" at all - they're data that are fed into the rules to produce a result (game sessions). I'm a programmer though, so I'm pretty picky about separating the two concepts.

[Nymdok]

Well.....

I'd love to see folks led back to GURPS most of all, but lets not discount the potential value to leading those folks FROM DFRPG to mabe....Action!RPG:PBG or SpaceRPG:PBG, or the chum in the water that boxed sets like that might provide.

As to whether or not DFRPG needs more 'crunch' Its very difficult to say with out actually seeing the finished product, Im going to guess that its probably a reliably stand alone product and may be fairly well fleshed out.

I've been thinking about what you describe as 'FLuff' and I too have been wondering about an Established setting and perhaps even a long adventure arc (in the spirit of Operation Endgame).

One of the problems that we seen experience some success, but maybe not HUGE success, is in balancing individual adventures for specific parties which would of course lower the bar for entry. Even using N notation, CER ratings etc, its still challenging to write adventures because you dont know whos at the table and which way their Characters 'grew' between sessions.

Now, perhaps, a long adventure chain that included some guidlines for the GM as to how many points should be issued at the end of an adventure might Narrow that envelope a bit, making the envelope of posibilities for growth a more manageable sub-space.

A different but potential idea, something Zombies Day One - ish that will provide basic frameworks for 'shake and bake' type adventuers taht are complete enough to be done quickly but not so complete that GM's cant tweak them a bit. DFRPG : Kicking in Doors or somthing liek that? This would help GMs who have built a world, but are looking for neat things to do in it.

As to settings, Im certainly wiling to hear arguments, but that is going to be a massive creative endeavour and if I could offer one bit of advice it would be to do it from 'high level' or Top Down view.

Im willing to guess that most GMs can cobble together a Town, or a dungeon for quick play, and those that cant can buy an adventure, but the challenge of buildign a planet can be daunting for some. A setting book that has a map and says 'This is the Colepteran Homeland' and this is the where the Barbarians roam the tundra etc might be useful. A book like this could help GMs who KNOW how to build an an adventure to have a frame work for where to put what.

Nymdok

[mehrkat]

I know it wouldn't be zero effort but I wonder what would be involved in translation guides for existing DF products or new versions of existing DF products to new DF.

[Kalzazz]

GURPS setting books trend either to 'things I'm not interested in' like Banestorm to 'things that are really cool, but so thinly described I do better rolling my own' like Roma Arcana

I'd like to see Roma Arcana get expanded to a 'stops bullets' type setting like Ptolus

Pretty shiny books of character options, races, lenses, items and monsters all seem things to try to convince game stores to carry

'How to be a DF GM' would be helpful to, I'd pay good money for that

[Ulairi]

I like the idea of the Powered by GURPS being separate lines that make it easier for folks to jump in, learn the system, and then move from a product to a product pretty easily. As in I play DF and jump to Scifi RPG or Supers RPG. Because GURPS is a toolkit that makes it easier for the mass market to get in and play and as they play a couple maybe they'd jump into the core system at some point.

I wouldn't mind an "intro" box for just GURPS at some point that could be the next stepping stone for the Powered By players.

[Refplace]

I like Bruno's ideas.
I think focusing on the DFRPG as a line is better for brand building, though I dread the loss to the main GURPS line in resources. However adding DFRPG items to the wish list could be helpful and I think mostly compatible with core fantasy GURPS.
Write most DFRPG books with a Campaigns and Crossovers section at the end that covers what you need to use it with the broader system should be enough and might not even be needed. Though it could serve as additional marketing.
Denizen or Power Up books should be good sellers and Bruno is right, aim for books to help the players.
And some of those books could add new rules that are really part of GURPS already but taken out of the DFRPG for simplicity.
For example a Martial Artist splat book could cover various styles an rules from Martial Arts or even GURPS Basic maneuvers that may have been left out of the DFRPG. As an advanced book it wont be as overwhelming as if they had been included in the DFRPG boxed set.
And people historically like power up type stuff, whether it be new rules or new gear.

Adventures designed for DFRPG can be much more tightly built than generic fantasy ones. Look at DF Adventure 1: Mirror of the Fire Demon.
GURPS does not have the crutch or easy out of writing for specific levels but you could write to the basic DF templates and have a chapter that offered advice for toughening it up to various ranges. I can take or leave most adventure books, however I know some love them and I suspect those into DFRPG more than GURPS plus the DF line would be more interested in adventures. Its not a brain thing but a time commitment thing.
And think how fondly decades later people still recall some old D&D adventure modules. That was good for the brand.


Settings: DF really is its own setting but I think a great setting really adds appeal to any product line. Trouble is making a great setting.
To me the DF line has strong potential here.
Go with what is in the books and a broad outline, including maps with lots of details missing to be added later.
Different areas of the maps could have rumors and hints for adventures but still leave room for each group to build out their own way.
I really think a DF based setting could work well but it needs to be simple to start with and use expansions for fleshing out specific areas or cultures.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Ulairi

I like the idea of the Powered by GURPS being separate lines that make it easier for folks to jump in, learn the system, and then move from a product to a product pretty easily. As in I play DF and jump to Scifi RPG or Supers RPG. Because GURPS is a toolkit that makes it easier for the mass market to get in and play and as they play a couple maybe they'd jump into the core system at some point.

I wouldn't mind an "intro" box for just GURPS at some point that could be the next stepping stone for the Powered By players.

This. IMO, GURPS is NOT an RPG, but it is a "RPG-Maker". The "core" GURPS could play great as the background for a great big number of games, being a reference for players that want to expand upon their game.

Let me give you my own personal experience with RPGs in general.

I started playing D&D second edition (AD&D). Ridiculously simple, and at the time, fun. TACO, you hit the foe, you either hit or miss. Simple. Some fixed spells. Also simple. And lists of monsters, list of treasures, and XP. Hack and slash at its core. Many years later, I played Pathfinder, I loved it, a little more complex, but still pretty straighfoward hack and slash. Kill, loot, upgrade.

Just a little time after AD&D, I played Vampire the Mask from World of Darkness. Omg, what an improvement! Skills!!! Thats so fantastic!!! I didnt just attacked, cast speels and loot; now, I could manipulate someone, I could make a great deal of things that AD&D didnt let me. Fantastic! Still, the rules are... Terrible. The system is broken. But it has ANOTHER "gold mine": a rich setting. Thats something that lacked in AD&D. WoD is heavy on fluffy. To the point that you just can't play without it. The system and the setting are one and the same.

And than... It came GURPS. So... With this a can play things other than fantasy? Like Sci Fi or even reality? (yeah, a game that would allow me to play mundane soldiers or spies on modern world were a mindblowing thing to me at the time). Oh my freaking God!!! I want that!!!"

Thing is, most people prefer the broken, unrealistic and limited rules (and limited setting options) from other systems, because they are simple.

And, IMO, GURPS is the BEST system. But it has two major flaws:

- No appealing setting (WoD - Vampire, Werewolf, Mage - have an awful system, but has a legion of fans thanks to the setting - and the setting is VERY broken in many aspects)
- Too complex

My suggestion would be:
- Make SEVERAL games that are fully indepent, built as games on their own right, independent, without even needing the Basic Set of GURPS (dont worry, players and GMs will want the Basic and others after playing those games
- Build those games with the setting already built. The purpose of those games are NOT "build your fine tuned game". No. The purpose is "buy and play - NOW". That being said, make all the rules (that are THE SAME rules present on the Basic and other suplements, like Powers, Supers, Thaumatology, Magic, Power Ups, etc) to be already fine tuned to the setting (forget all those "optional rule for an alternative scenario X"). No. If you make a game with Magic, it will have a fixed system or list of Spells. Don't make it like "Magic uses verbs and Nouns. But it can also have Realms as an alternative". No! The "Mages of the Eight Sigil from the nortern kingdom use the Frost Realm of Magic. The barbarians of the west use Animal Realm". The setting is fixed, and so are the rules and the traits. Offer options for customization INSIDE those parameters.
- When making those games, ask yourself: "Would a D&D player play this?"

There are two types of potential costumers for this kind of product: new players from other systems, and GURPS veterans. So, keeping it simple enough that D&D players would play it, will attract a legion of new fans to GURPS.

But what about the veteranos? (You know, those costumers that are the ones actually paying the bills at this moment).

Well, simple: make DFRPG (Begginers) for the D&D players. Veterans don't need to buy that, since it would probably be boring for them (althouth, you may be surprised that some would like this version!). And have the DFRPG Advanced for veterans. I also suggest making BOTH PDFs avaiable for people that buys the game. I would also make an "Intermediate" level, to increase just a few rules for the begginers (without rules for digging holes and the kind of soil), leaving the most hardcore and beautiful elements of improved realism for the old veterans, but giving a little bit more for the begginers to move beyond the "I attack" and "roll damage".

In my view, GURPS have a gold mine in its hands, and it could easily dominate the market, but it is not well explored to its full potential. Here are some areas were GURPS could easily dominate, if an effort to focus on them were made

- Dungeon Fantasy
- Medieval Fantasy
- Steampunk, Cyberpunk (and any other "punk")
- Sci Fi
- Space Opera
- Urban Fantasy (a good setting for Monsters Hunters could erase World of Darkness from memory, with simple rules)
- Historical Settings
- Action Games

Make each one of those as fully independent games, and make GURPS their "common source". Im sure this would make GURPS became the number one

[philreed]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

So what would people want to see down the line for the DFRPG?

A thread like this somewhere else on the internet where gamers chat. This is _exactly_ the kind of discussion that should be happening on various forums and groups to get a wide number of responses _and_ get in front of people who don't play GURPS.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by philreed

A thread like this somewhere else on the internet where gamers chat. This is _exactly_ the kind of discussion that should be happening on various forums and groups to get a wide number of responses _and_ get in front of people who don't play GURPS.

I went off to start one but someone beat me to it.
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