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Old 07-16-2019, 07:58 AM   #71
jfleisher
 
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Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

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Makes it all the easier to paint my Dopps up like Typhoon-class submarines.

"Gentlemen, I preshent to you, the Ballistic Missile Cybertank chassis Red October. My networked sub-AIs and I requesht ashylum, in the North American Combine."
By the way, this is, hands down, the best Sean Connery impersonation I have ever heard.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:01 AM   #72
Staggeron
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

Highly disappointed that you have decided to use Indiegogo for Orge Pre-Sales. :(
I would prefer not to give those hucksters another penny of my money!!!

When you read their "fine print", the "perk" you are paying for is nothing but a DONATION to someone to try and produce a product, not you actually paying for an item even though it is set up to look that way.
“Crowd funding is not shopping. Your donation is a way to support a project but does not guarantee that you will receive a perk.”
Indiegogo skims about 8% off the top up front and when users do not get a product, they don't care because they got paid already.

1st Project I backed hasn't shipped and it's been 2 years. Every month get an update saying shipping pushed back again.

2nd Project Creators stated they now don't think their Router is getting produced, said they would give manufacturer another month then refund backers, that was 2 months ago and then they went silent.
In the mean time they removed all of their bio info from Indiegogo, their website ( which all help modules don't work for non-payment ) and their email address is no longer valid.
They scammed people out of over $500,000+ - Indiegogo's response was deal with the creator, email the bad email address, it's not their problem.

3rd Project may actually get produced - Atari.

4th Project, was very leery of donating after being burned, but I am within the time frame I can still do a charge back on my CC. I will be watching this one VERY closely.

Please reconsider using Indiegogo, that site is getting\has a bad reputation and I would hate for SJG's reputation to get tarnished for using their service.

I was trying to never use Indiegogo ever again, on the fence as to backing this project as much as I would love to get them.

Last edited by Staggeron; 07-16-2019 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:01 AM   #73
Worldwalker
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

Regarding overseas shipping charges:

They are, in a word, obscene. I thought I was charging too much in my own Kickstarter a couple of years ago -- I ended up eating part of the cost, because I'd miscalculated. Global Priority Mail used to be about $5 and was delivered within, if I recall correctly, 5 days. It is now over $35 and takes 6-10 days. 3-5 day delivery is $64.

I technically do offer overseas shipping for physical instances of my products, but nobody after the KS has ever bought it; they just get digital delivery. I would too, because I sure wouldn't pay $35 to ship a $45 item and trust to luck that it won't get caught in a mail-grinding machine somewhere along the way.

The USPS decided the best way to respond to lower sales was to increase their prices and reduce their services. I've never heard of that working for any company, ("Hmmm, we're not selling as many Ogres ... how about we double the price and make them out of styrofoam and tinfoil?") but they do them, I guess. The result is that overseas shipping -- and even in-country shipping, in many cases -- has become prohibitively expensive.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:10 AM   #74
Worldwalker
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Staggeron View Post
Highly disappointed that you have decided to use Indiegogo for Orge Pre-Sales. :(
I would prefer not to give those hucksters another penny of my money!!!

They are not like Kickstarter where you are actually purchasing a product.
When you read their "fine print", this "perk" you are paying for is nothing but a DONATION to someone to try and produce a product, not you actually paying for an item even though it is set up to look that way.
Indiegogo skims about 8% off the top up front and when users do not get a product, they don't care because they got paid already.

1st Project I backed hasn't shipped and it's been 2 years. Every month get an update saying shipping pushed back again.

2nd Project Creators stated they now don't think their Router is now getting produced, said they would give manufacturer another month then refund backers 2 months ago and then went silent.
In the mean time they removed all of their bio info from Indiegogo, their website ( which all help modules don't work for non-payment ) and their email address is no longer valid.
Indiegogo's response was deal with the creator, email the bad email address, it's not their problem.

3rd Project may actually get produced - Atari.

4th Project, was very leery of donating after being burned, but I am within the time frame I can still do a charge back on my CC. I will be watching this one VERY closely.

Please reconsider using Indiegogo, that site is getting\has a bad reputation and I would hate for SJG's reputation to get tarnished for using their service.

I was trying to never use Indiegogo ever again, on the fence as to backing this project as much as I would love to get them.
Part of the problem is that since Kickstarter has at least talked about reputability, reliability, etc., the skeevy projects have been pushed over to Indiegogo. Not that there aren't bad actors on Kickstarter, of course -- I pulled out of the Paladin3D scam the day before it closed, and I'm happy I did -- but by and large, Indiegogo has become known as a welcoming place for those dubious projects, shady companies, and general-purpose scammers. It's a positive feedback loop: the worse it looks, the worse it becomes. And the way they work, especially their billing practices, makes it appear that the only thing they're interested in is their cut from the funds; they don't even pretend to care about the buyer. So again this attracts more of the skeevy projects and in turn repels the legitimate ones, and this keeps building on itself.

I don't want to give those people any of my money. Not if it's only a single dollar. I also don't like seeing SJG being associated with that platform -- they'll get ick all over the company's image.

I would trust SJG with anything. I trust Indiegogo with nothing. I'd spend twice as much to buy those Ogres from W23 as they are in Indiegogo, but I can't in good conscience give IGG any of my money. They're not good folks.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:41 AM   #75
HeatDeath
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Staggeron View Post
When you read their "fine print", the "perk" you are paying for is nothing but a DONATION to someone to try and produce a product, not you actually paying for an item even though it is set up to look that way.
“Crowd funding is not shopping. Your donation is a way to support a project but does not guarantee that you will receive a perk.”
Indiegogo skims about 8% off the top up front and when users do not get a product, they don't care because they got paid already.


Please reconsider using Indiegogo, that site is getting\has a bad reputation and I would hate for SJG's reputation to get tarnished for using their service.
I don't entirely understand the vehemence of this very common complaint from a lot of people - Kickstarter's TOS says exactly the same thing in pretty much the same way. They've never represented themselves as having any obligation to provide any curation, policing, oversight, or accountability over creators - they're just a "dumb pipe" for money. IGG is just a little more in-your-face about it than KS, but KS's viability as a business depends on the exact same complete lack of obligation to the donators.

The reputational problem is a bigger concern. KS realized they had this reputational problem and started talking a much better game about consumer protection (though I'm existentially certain it's much more bark than bite, under the hood). Whether it's fair or not, a lot of people approach IGG expecting IGG to have much more obligations than they actually do, and that seems to have created a genuine PR problem.
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:59 AM   #76
TheAmishStig
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Lancaster, PA
Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

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Originally Posted by Worldwalker View Post
The USPS decided the best way to respond to lower sales was to increase their prices and reduce their services.
It's not even just lower sales. A faction within the US government wants to get rid of the USPS, so has put some unbearable mandates on them like pre-funding the pensions for employees that haven't even been born at the time the mandate came down (they're now required to fund their pensions 20 years ahead), and the financial burden is doing what it's designed to do: crush them to make "Well look how bad the government is at running USPS, time to turn it over to for-profit corporations" more appealing.

I can't speak to the overseas charges because I'm not overseas...but domestically they're adding $10 for a 3-pack, and if we're talking flat-rate boxes that's about right. 3 sets should fit in a flat rate box about the size of a 4-stack of DVD cases, and when I got that same box from Litko in the spring it was $8.75. Kick in a little markup to pay the fulfillment partner in Michigan, and yeah.

For what it's worth, what's bothering me about the shipping on IGG isn't that a 3-pack within the US is $10; it's that it's not accounting for 'a double order can go in a slightly bigger box, or depending on dimensions the same box, rather than two smaller boxes shipped separately'. At the level my heart wants to back at [and my brain is fighting it on] I'm looking a minimum of $50 in IGG-collected shipping charges. A recent order for TFT, two Chez expansions, and a bunch of baubles shipped for about a third of that.

I'm left wondering if it should have been a "shipping charged separately in Backerkit" scenario, rather than trying to collect it at pledge time.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:35 AM   #77
HeatDeath
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

I trust Indiegogo completely to do precisely what they've promised to do - collect the amount of money I've donated and [eventually] forward it to the project creator.

No more and no less.

I certainly don't trust them to ensure that the projects they host are viable and trustworthy, but then I never thought that they [or KS for that matter] even implicitly promised to do that.

[What IGG promise to do, and seem to carry out very successfully - being a dumb pipe for money from donors to creators - is non-trivial to set up, and I'm ok paying them a little for that service. I don't see any reason to punish them, a creator, or myself, just because they don't provide consumer protection services they never promised to provide, and are very up-front about not providing.]

Last edited by HeatDeath; 07-16-2019 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:39 AM   #78
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Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
I don't entirely understand the vehemence of this very common complaint from a lot of people - Kickstarter's TOS says exactly the same thing in pretty much the same way.
I don't understand it either. I've backed projects on both platforms. All reliability issues come down to the creator of the project; both sites are run openly as 'this is not a store'. I've only backed two bad projects, both of which were on KS; and KS did nothing to help with either.

One of them was in fact a full blown intentional scam, and the creators discovered to be professional con artists after the fact. The backers were only collateral damage in the scam, the product of successful KS funding was a carrot to lure in bigger investors. But then we had our own little discussion forum in the project's comments where many backers jumped into the research and did the detective work. KS did nothing to help, they pointed to their 'not a store' policy. When I presented the gathered evidence of the scam to my credit card company, they accepted it. A month and a day after the claimed delivery date, they refunded my money on the proviso that Kickstarter wouldn't challenge the charge back within another 30 days. Kickstarter did not challenge. Nor did KS ever do anything to help the backers who did not pursue a charge-back from their credit card company within sufficient time.

I still happily support crowd-funded projects where I am quite willing to trust the company or where I am quite willing to risk my investment. The given platform has no impact on assessment decisions. I presume that neither one will help me in the rare instance when there is an actual scam.

I am quite certain that SJG will not scam us!
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:44 AM   #79
Mallen the dark
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Carrollton, Newnan area of Ga
Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

I had never heard of IGG before today. So all I know is what I have read here. But all that a side, my biggest problem is I have finally got KS/Backerkit straight and figured out. It took three projects to do it. Not sure I want to learn a new one at this point.

Phil, is there some way to join this project at the backerkit point? I have both models in metal and was mainly planning to get some so that I had it both ways and have a set to give my son.

I have been so happy with the detail in the plastic minis that my goal is to replace my entire metal combine army with plastic.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:46 AM   #80
offsides
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cheltenham, PA
Default Re: Indiegogo: Ogre Miniatures Set 3 - Doppelsoldner and Ogre Mark VI

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
I don't entirely understand the vehemence of this very common complaint from a lot of people - Kickstarter's TOS says exactly the same thing in pretty much the same way. They've never represented themselves as having any obligation to provide any curation, policing, oversight, or accountability over creators - they're just a "dumb pipe" for money. IGG is just a little more in-your-face about it than KS, but KS's viability as a business depends on the exact same complete lack of obligation to the donators.

The reputational problem is a bigger concern. KS realized they had this reputational problem and started talking a much better game about consumer protection (though I'm existentially certain it's much more bark than bite, under the hood). Whether it's fair or not, a lot of people approach IGG expecting IGG to have much more obligations than they actually do, and that seems to have created a genuine PR problem.
I haven't dealt with IGG before and have heard only limited stories before this project, but the impression I get is that while neither site has a responsibility to protect the consumers, KS responded along the lines of, "It's not really our job, but we'll do what we can to try and minimize the bad apples," whereas IGG has been more of, "You lost your money? STBY Dude!" No, it doesn't really change the fact that ANY project you pledge is a risk, but the attitude on the back end colors the perception on the front end, and combined with the fact that KS has tried to reduce the number of projects that are likely to fail down the line (successful or otherwise) may also have shifted some of the more failure-prone projects to IGG for a downward spiral reputation-wise. All of this is just impressions on my end, but when it comes to speculative project sites like KS and IGG sometimes that's all it takes to make or break a project that's not a 100% certainty like this one.

I'm still curious as to the back-end reasons for SJG switching from KS to IGG for Ogre projects (and just Ogre projects, at least for now, or so I gather), but I know that's something Phil & co. may or may not be willing to share, and/or have time to share. In any event, I'm hopeful for a successful project outcome no matter what the platform.
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