Logistically Viable Weapons Part 2: Electric Boogaloo Bullets (AtE)

[Minuteman37]

Ok I dealt with some Real life stuff, did some more research and I'm back to bounce some ideas off the GURPS community.

Link to last thread:

It has a fascinating calvary discussion, though I hope we're done beating that dead horse *de bump tiss*

So here are my current thoughts for my warlord's faction. Equipment is distributed in four tiers:

Tier 4: Conscripts from conquered tribes, criminals, enlisted non-citizens etc. Receive Muskets, though battle hardened platoons typically ditch those for the weapons of defeated foes. Tier 4 units are grouped together in a battalion to signify the upper limit of the logistic support avaliable to them. actual numbers are constantly in flux do to high recruitment and casualties.

Tier 3:Standard light infantry made up of first time enlisted citizens, use single shot breech-loading rifles with bayonets, they have helmets, load bearing gear, mortar support, trucks for transport, radio headsets issued at the corporal level and up, and drone reconnaissance.

Skirmisher, scouts and pathfinder units with fine (accurate) rifled muskets, and horse/bike transport are also Tier 3.

Tier 2: Shock Troopers and mechanized infantry, made up of veterans from lower tiers in their 3rd or 4th tour. A small company in size. Armed humvees and APCs for transport and fire support. Troops are given bullet resistant vests, stick grenades are available, their standard long arm is a carbine length lever-action rifle, breaching units get pump-action shotguns, while snipers and DMs get full length bolt-action rifles with match grade ammunition. Simple blow-back, stamp metal SMGs are starting to trickle down from the factories in the capital. The long term plan is to make Tier 2 equipment standard amongst the entire army once production is in full swing and current stockpiles start to dwindle.

Tier 1: The Warlord's Elite Guard, and Most trusted henchmen units, about platoon size. Ostensibly armed like Tier 2 units, but they get dips on whatever non manufacturable pre collapse gear is available. on an individual kit level they closely resemble modern first world special forces.



Thoughts, criticisms, comments?

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

Tier 2: ...standard long arm is a carbine length lever-action rifle

If you make this a bolt-action, you can get more commonality of parts and training with the other weapons. I suspect that lever-action is more mechanically complex than bolt-action, with no speed or other benefit. Bolt action is easier to use prone, too.

[Dustin]

You're also supporting a lot of different longarms with your limited logistical base. Hopefully the levels of support look like:

Tier 4 muskets - none, if it breaks oh well, these are all surplus/scavenged
Tier 3 single shot breech-loaders - locally manufactured and supported
Tier 2 carbines/shotguns/sniper rifles/SMGs- all imported from the capital at significant expense.

Otherwise, it's too many models. I would cut out a couple. Breaching shotguns might be more of a Tier 1 thing.

[mlangsdorf]

At tier 2, why are you setting up two different schemes for manufacturing your rifles? Just set up one manufacturing line for bolt action receivers, filter out the best ones for the snipers, and pass the rest to the common troops. That simplifies your logistics slightly (one less type of spare parts) and your training, since troopers that get promoted to designated marksmen already know how to work the gun's action.

At tier 3, you've got roughly 1 in 5 guys with a radio headset. Which is nice, but that's a lot. You're looking at a couple of companies, so 60+ headsets.

At tier 4, I hope those are rifled muskets if you can rifle them. I think you would also want to discourage looting, because having those guys grab a bunch of random weapons and ammo is going to mess up your logistics again.

So you're looking a total force of:
Tier 1 platoon (30-50 elite)
Tier 2 small company (75-120 vetarans)
Tier 3 companies (300-500 citizen militia)
Tier 4 battalion (600-800 auxiliaries)

So the total combat force is somewhere between 1000 and 1500 guys, half of which is of dubious political reliability and less suitable for garrison duty. They're also the least effective combat units, so I hope they're cheap.

Assuming 2% of your total population is in frontline service, you're looking at a nation-state of about 50K to 100K total population. Assuming a population density of 10 people/square mile (which is basically unpopulated by today's standards and roughly 1/10th the current US average), they've got around 10,000 square miles of territory - which is a square 100 miles on each side or the entire state of Vermont, New Hampshire, or Massachusetts. Higher population density or a greater percentage of the population in active service mean a more compact territory, of course, but there's a question of dense the population or high concentrated the military can be before it no longer feels like a post-Apocalyptic game.

[Minuteman37]

I'm personally hot and cold with the lever-actions. They're cheaper then bolt-actions, and they have rate of fire two.

One thing I didn't mention was I'm considering having the breech loaders, lever-actions, bolt-actions, SMGs, AND any side arms using the same ammunition.

I looked at Gamingballistics article on the .357 magnum round and it looks very nice.

6d's of damage coming out of 20 inch barrel bolt-action sniper rifle.

5d+2 for a 16 inch breach loader.

5d+1 for a 14 inch lever-action carbine.

Even 4d+2 for an 8 inch Sten gun.



I'm still thinking about it though.

Now that I've actually laid out the numbers I may cut the lever action, shorten the bolt-action down to 16 and bulk -5; make it standard issue for tier 2, snipers get fine quality breech loaders with match grade ammunition, and breech loaders are now 20 inches to get the most out of the cartridge.

The point of the tier 2 company is that they're a rapid response force to blitzkrieg tribles and rush over to put out fires and seal gaps in lines. So when equipping them consideration needs to be made for the confined spaces of a transport vehicle.


As for the shotguns. Pump-action shotguns are ubiquitous in america you can find them everywhere, and unlike some other guns of similar commonality (the AR platform, which is definitely tier 1), it's much simpler (though not the simplest I'll admit), and most importantly it's ammunition responds well to suboptimal powder and multiple reloadings. Not to mention it doesn't need a rifled barrel and even if you're not reloading shells you can make them from cardboard.

That's why I'm putting them at tier 2 for some specialists to use even though they may not be fabricated wholecloth back home.

[Minuteman37]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

At tier 2, why are you setting up two different schemes for manufacturing your rifles? Just set up one manufacturing line for bolt action receivers, filter out the best ones for the snipers, and pass the rest to the common troops. That simplifies your logistics slightly (one less type of spare parts) and your training, since troopers that get promoted to designated marksmen already know how to work the gun's action.

At tier 3, you've got roughly 1 in 5 guys with a radio headset. Which is nice, but that's a lot. You're looking at a couple of companies, so 60+ headsets.

At tier 4, I hope those are rifled muskets if you can rifle them. I think you would also want to discourage looting, because having those guys grab a bunch of random weapons and ammo is going to mess up your logistics again.

So you're looking a total force of:
Tier 1 platoon (30-50 elite)
Tier 2 small company (75-120 vetarans)
Tier 3 companies (300-500 citizen militia)
Tier 4 battalion (600-800 auxiliaries)

So the total combat force is somewhere between 1000 and 1500 guys, half of which is of dubious political reliability and less suitable for garrison duty. They're also the least effective combat units, so I hope they're cheap.

Assuming 2% of your total population is in frontline service, you're looking at a nation-state of about 50K to 100K total population. Assuming a population density of 10 people/square mile (which is basically unpopulated by today's standards and roughly 1/10th the current US average), they've got around 10,000 square miles of territory - which is a square 100 miles on each side or the entire state of Vermont, New Hampshire, or Massachusetts. Higher population density or a greater percentage of the population in active service mean a more compact territory, of course, but there's a question of dense the population or high concentrated the military can be before it no longer feels like a post-Apocalyptic game.

Do note though that these are full time soldiers, additional reserves can be tapped when not in season or if the state is directly attacked.

[Mathulhu]

I would equip the average rifleman in Tier 4 and Tier 3 the same. The difference would be how much other equipment and support they have access to.

[Minuteman37]

Originally Posted by Mathulhu

I would equip the average rifleman in Tier 4 and Tier 3 the same. The difference would be how much other equipment and support they have access to.

That's kind of the plan.

On a thematic level I'm trying to unite a couple of different aesthetics. Nazi militarism with it's masculin simplicity and dark ruthless efficiency united with British imperialism for it's ambition, tenacity, and nobility, topped with some allusions to the confederacy, to show the brokenness of america in this new age.

So I've chosen to set the game during a transitory time. There are still muskets in storage with no reason not to hand them out to the conscrips given their logistical ease.

Breech-loaders are in abundance and have been made for several years prior, but are starting to be phased out for the bolt action rifles, and the kinks for the SMGs have finally been ironed out.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

Do note though that these are full time soldiers, additional reserves can be tapped when not in season or if the state is directly attacked.

Right, I said 2% of your population is front-line military service. That's very sustainable across a wide range of TLs. Now, when you start hitting 10% in military service, you start hitting guns versus butter issues but he's not there yet.

Though that 2% number is just front line military service, and there should be at least a 1:1 ratio of support personnel to front line troops. Doctors, nurses, mechanics, armorers, cooks, supply teamsters, accountants, scribes, clerks, quartermasters, and the like could all be civilians working with the military, but there also need to be some drill instructors and such that are in the military.

[tanksoldier]

I’d say you’re still making your logistics requirements overly complex.

Loose black powder and shot for the muskets vs fixed cartridge smokeless powder for everything else is one example.

Low rate of fire was a deliberate logistics based choice in many militaries.

Most Soviet WWII era weapons are 7.62mm because they could use one boring machine to make barrels for different weapons and just vary the barrel length... pistol, smg, rifle, machine gun all on one machine.

Similar benefits to ammo manufacturing.

IMO the slight benefit of issuing conscripts rifled muskets is more than offset by the separate logistics chain from everybody else and the inability of better equipped troops to use the conscripts ammo in an emergency.

Similarly different rifles for different tiers creates a logistical parts nightmare. Even if they are based on the same design there will be different parts.

My suggestion using Russian equivalent gear:

Tier 4 gets PPS and TT30 pistols and nothing else. No mortars, machine guns or other support weapons. One type of a ammo, inexpensive and simple weapons, and the units are essentially helpless without outside support. Heard them in the direction of the enemy and use them as mine clearance, close assault and urban warfare troops.

Tier 3 The same with designated marksmen getting M1891/30s with scopes. Support weapons include SG43 machineguns, RPG1 AT and M37 mortars.

Tier 2 General issue of the M1890/30 with the rest being the same. Weapons crews and support troops get the PPS. These troops are used to form a base of fire around which the lower tiers maneuver.

Tier 1 Primarily used as enforcers and occasional shock troops. SVT40 or PPS,
Other support weapons the same. Issuing the SVT40 isn’t as much of a logistics problem at this level as these units are few and are usually closer to their support.

Heavier support weapons, armored transport and armor/ armored cavalry should be separate platoons manned by Tier 1 personnel. They can then be detailed to support any unit. A Tier 4 battalion could be supported in an assault by a Tier 1 heavy machinegun or heavy mortar platoon without giving unreliable troops direct access to support weapons. It also allows scarce resources to be concentrated where they are needed.

Tier 4 and 3 units shouldn’t have any integral transport or logistic support. Everything has to be delivered by outside units. This makes it more difficult to revolt since they can’t go anywhere except by walking.

Motorized transport units, trucks/wagons, are manned by Tier 2 troops and used to move both Tier 4 and 3 units and provide additional logistic support to Tier 1 and 2. This prevents Tier 3 and 4 units from moving far on their own, and again doesn’t tie down logistics assets in units that aren’t going anywhere.

Tier should be based more on reliability than experience. You’re going to have veterans that are NOT reliable, and citizen volunteers that are. 4 should be conscripts from conquered territory, criminal enlisted and penal troops. They should not serve near their home regions. 3 should be the baseline conscript citizen. They also should not serve in their home regions. The average citizen would enter the military here and move up or down, or remain the same based on subsequent behavior and service. 2 is troops who have proven increased reliability, long service veterans who have repeatedly remained loyal despite opportunities to revolt or surrender, or who have increased reason to remain loyal... for example, they are from the capital region and their families are effectively hostages. 1 should be the warlords personal banner men and huscarles.

Officers, commanders and commissars at least, should generally be from the next higher reliability tier except for penal troops who get disgraced officers from any tier.

You don’t need that many radios. One per company at 4 and 3 and one per platoon at 2 is enough. 1 will vary depending on type of unit but 1 per squad ( tank, artillery or mortar section, etc)

Units of different tiers wouldn’t be permanently assigned in the same unit to prevent familiarity breeding sympathy. A tier 4 native battalion wouldn’t have a tier 2 company and tier 1 command platoon