[WWII] P-47D Thunderbolt

[hackbarth]

I was looking for the vehicle stats for the P-47D Thunderbolt, the fighter-bomber used by the 1o Brazilian Fighter Squadron, but didn't find the 4e stats anywhere. (3e stats where in WWII:Dogfaces).

Here is my take on the 'Jug':

P-47D "Thunderbolt" Fighter/Bomber

ST/HP: 150
Hnd/SR: 1/3
HT: 11f
Move: 3/214yps
LWt: 7t
Load: 1.6t
SM: +6
Crew: 1
DR: 10
Range: 1600mi
Cost: 61.000$
Locations: g3WrWi
Stall: 97yps

Weapons: 8x Browning M2HB (wings)

I based this version on the 3e to 4e comparison of the P-51 and FW-190 from WWII, Iron Cross to the versions in High Tech, and trying to do the same with the P-47 from Dogfaces, using the new vehicle stats definitions from Campaigns. Never opened so many Gurps books at the same time in my table!

Comments, please?

[copeab]

The P-47 should be more durable than the P-51 even being heavier (and thus more HP) and higher DR. However, a lot of this is due to air-cooled radials being better able to take battle damage than liquid-cooled inlines, but even VE2 didn't cover that.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by hackbarth

ST/HP: 150

Empty weight is 10,700 lbs. That's ST/HP 88. Your 150 is more for a WWII medium tank . . .

Originally Posted by hackbarth

LWt: 7t

Maximum loaded weight of the P-47D is given as 19,400 lbs. That's 9.7 tons.

Originally Posted by hackbarth

DR: 10

Why would it have so thick armour? Other WWII fighters in High-Tech have DR 5, which is already pushing it.

Originally Posted by hackbarth

Range: 1600mi

Given as 1,000 miles without drop tanks.

Originally Posted by hackbarth

Weapons: 8x Browning M2HB (wings)

No. It was armed with the Browning M2, which has quite different stats.

Cheers

HANS

[copeab]

Originally Posted by HANS

Why would it have so thick armour? Other WWII fighters in High-Tech have DR 5, which is already pushing it.

In 3e, it was to partly represent the ruggedness of the plane that HPs alone didn't. It's probably still a fair kludge even in 4e.

[hackbarth]

Originally Posted by HANS

Empty weight is 10,700 lbs. That's ST/HP 88. Your 150 is more for a WWII medium tank . . .

Based on the proportional mass of the P-47 to the P-51. All accounts I researched did stress the ruggedness of the P-47. Senta a Pua (An account of the Brazilian Airforce campaign) tells of a P-47 going through a tree unharmed, and knocking off a lamp post and flying back to the base.

Originally Posted by HANS

Maximum loaded weight of the P-47D is given as 19,400 lbs. That's 9.7 tons.

That was the figure from Dogfaces. I prefered game figures where I could get them, figuring the research was already done for me.

Originally Posted by HANS

Why would it have so thick armour? Other WWII fighters in High-Tech have DR 5, which is already pushing it.

Again the figure from Dogfaces. And given the above testimonials, I inclined to use it still.

Originally Posted by HANS

Given as 1,000 miles without drop tanks.

I calculated this from the fuel tank capacity/routine usage comsumption in Dogfaces. Seemed reasonable to extrapolate from this. Got it close enough!

Originally Posted by HANS

No. It was armed with the Browning M2, which has quite different stats.

Thanks, hadn't noticed that.

Originally Posted by HANS

Cheers

HANS

Thanks! The help is MUCH appreciated!

[hackbarth]

So this is more like it?

P-47D "Thunderbolt" Fighter/Bomber

ST/HP: I think I need more opinions on this
Hnd/SR: 1/3
HT: 11f
Move: 3/214yps
LWt: 9.7t
Load: 1.6t
SM: +6
Crew: 1
DR: 10
Range: 1000mi
Cost: 61.000$
Locations: g3WrWi
Stall: 97yps

Weapons: 8x Browning M2 (wings)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by hackbarth

ST/HP: I think I need more opinions on this

In 4e this has to be weight (in tons)^1/3 x 50, otherwise it will do all manner of wonky things with collisions and so on. Assuming we can trust HANS's loaded weight (and if not, why are you trusting his P-51 stats then? ), I also get 88.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In 4e this has to be weight (in tons)^1/3 x 50, otherwise it will do all manner of wonky things with collisions and so on. Assuming we can trust HANS's loaded weight (and if not, why are you trusting his P-51 stats then? ), I also get 88.

It doesn't *have* to be anything, especially if it's not an "official" write-up. It's perfectly okay to break the rules if you have a good reason and if you tell everyone you've done so. The OP has now been told he can't represent the P-47's legendary ability to take battle-damage either by increasing HPs or DR. How then do you suggest he represent it?

[HANS]

Originally Posted by copeab

It doesn't *have* to be anything, especially if it's not an "official" write-up. It's perfectly okay to break the rules if you have a good reason and if you tell everyone you've done so.

Hearsay isn't a good reason. "Legendary toughness" doesn't mean anything. We need to know compared to what, under which circumstances, etc. Does it mean it could take more hits? Where?
Arbitrarily assiging more more power (ST), more hit points (HP), and more DR isn't the way to solve this.
GURPS Fourth Edition has specific rules how to handle ST/HP. You can ignore them, of course, but the OP asked for opinions. Giving an aircraft that weighs 5 tons empty the same ST and HP as a 26-ton tank isn't a good solution. It's unrealistic, it's not how GURPS is designed to work. That's why we have the ST/HP rules, to make things comparable.
Increasing DR means the aircraft can't be damaged. This is not what happens with these things. What happens is that they get shot to pieces and still come back.

Originally Posted by copeab

The OP has now been told he can't represent the P-47's legendary ability to take battle-damage either by increasing HPs or DR. How then do you suggest he represent it?

The most realistic and most elegant solution is using the Vehicle Hit Location rules (pp. B554-555) and giving it a high HT (so it won't fail on a Body hit and can continue to fly home even when swiss-cheesed) and a ruggedised Vital Area (eg, that it takes only x2 instead of x3 damage from pi attacks).

Cheers

HANS

[copeab]

Originally Posted by HANS

The most realistic and most elegant solution is using the Vehicle Hit Location rules (pp. B554-555) and giving it a high HT (so it won't fail on a Body hit and can continue to fly home even when swiss-cheesed) and a ruggedised Vital Area (eg, that it takes only x2 instead of x3 damage from pi attacks).

These aren't bad solutions. Too bad they weren't suggested before my last post ;)