[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#27): Common Sense, Intuition

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Better to model it as Serendipity then? That way it only comes up if it's plausible and relevant to the action.

Gizmos would also work for any gear related needs.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Better to model it as Serendipity then? That way it only comes up if it's plausible and relevant to the action.

Why would you even want to model a thing like that? It sounds like you're thinking of playing the White Knight from Through the Looking Glass. . . .

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think performing all possible SOPs all the time would make you look like a crazy person in most societies. It would include, for instance, always having dug a latrine...

The Advantage wouldn't be "performs all SOPs all the time" but rather "performs all necessary SOPs all the time".

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

The Advantage wouldn't be "performs all SOPs all the time" but rather "performs all necessary SOPs all the time".

How would you know which ones were necessary in advance? Precognition isn't common sense.

The point of having a standard procedure is that you do it habitually even when it doesn't matter, so that it is ensured done when it does matter. This requires that you actually do the things, though.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

How would you know which ones were necessary in advance? Precognition isn't common sense.

The point of having a standard procedure is that you do it habitually even when it doesn't matter, so that it is ensured done when it does matter. This requires that you actually do the things, though.

I think we have a clash here between a simulationist perspective and a narrative perspective.

Narrativistically, I'd want to say that I'd been doing whatever SOP is relevant to the situation I find myself in now, even if strictly logically it would've been impossible for me to maintain all the other procedures that could possibly otherwise have been needed.

Of course, simulationistically, only a small, finite number of SOPs are actually possible.

Which approach is appropriate depends on the gaming table.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Narrativistically, I'd want to say that I'd been doing whatever SOP is relevant to the situation I find myself in now, even if strictly logically it would've been impossible for me to maintain all the other procedures that could possibly otherwise have been needed.

Of course, simulationistically, only a small, finite number of SOPs are actually possible.

Which approach is appropriate depends on the gaming table.

Neither seems to be common sense either in the colloquial meaning or for the purposes of the GURPS trait.

For example checking doors for booby traps is paranoia 99% of the time. The guy who checks only when there actually is a trap has Danger Sense. The guy who drops his keys at the right moment and accidentally finds the trap has Serendipity. The guy who habitually checks every door has an SOP, but also looks like a weirdo and wastes a lot of time.

Common Sense shouldn't, IMO, get a roll to remind the player to check for traps under normal everyday circumstances. Not routinely checking doors for traps is normal behavior and not at all STUPID. If you only had them roll when there was a trap that would be giving them Danger Sense for free.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I think we have a clash here between a simulationist perspective and a narrative perspective.

Narrativistically, I'd want to say that I'd been doing whatever SOP is relevant to the situation I find myself in now, even if strictly logically it would've been impossible for me to maintain all the other procedures that could possibly otherwise have been needed.

Of course, simulationistically, only a small, finite number of SOPs are actually possible.

Which approach is appropriate depends on the gaming table.

I was kind of wondering about that myself. Standard Operating Procedures are the kind of Perk that provides an exemption from the standard rules (PU2 p. 20). Off-Screen Reload does not magically reload your weapon at any point when game time skips ahead for your character. It just means that instead of having to remember to inform the GM, or hoping the GM allows your character an IQ roll to have remembered to do it during your character's downtime, it is just assumed

It does mention the GM is free to make you pay (in terms of in-game finances) for reloading your weapon, but it does not suggest that a SOP is handled like the Compulsive Behavior Disadvantage. It is a Perk because it provides a minor in-game benefit, and ought to be fairly simple. Now if you want to use them to justify taking a related Disadvantage, more power to ya. Then it goes from "I do this when I am able." to "I must do this or I'll freak out!". I also worry that maybe the term "SOP" and its real world uses are confusing the game use; if in game terms it isn't going to be a minor net positive, it's probably a Quirk and not a Perk.

At least, if I actually understand how Perks in general and SOP specifically function. Now if I have that wrong... okay, anyone willing to direct me to what I missed? Be it in a supplement, a Kromm quote, etc.? ^^'

[Otaku]

Please, pardon the double post. I try to be careful when posting. When I don't, instead of maybe making a stupid comment, I probably make a stupid comment. XP So my previous post was typed before sir_pudding's latest comment was visible to me.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Neither seems to be common sense either in the colloquial meaning or for the purposes of the GURPS trait.

Part of this may be you have a greater knowledge of SOP for GURPS than some of us do (for sure me!). I had no idea this game had an SOP for digging latrines. This sounds more like a military standard operating procedure and not the GURPS trait... give or take an adventure (or entire campaign) with a particular combat setting.

I think we just disagree on real world common sense, and probably what SOP Perks in GURPS really mean. If I've got it wrong, hopefully we can straighten me out.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Neither seems to be common sense either in the colloquial meaning or for the purposes of the GURPS trait.

For example checking doors for booby traps is paranoia 99% of the time. The guy who checks only when there actually is a trap has Danger Sense. The guy who drops his keys at the right moment and accidentally finds the trap has Serendipity. The guy who habitually checks every door has an SOP, but also looks like a weirdo and wastes a lot of time.

Common Sense shouldn't, IMO, get a roll to remind the player to check for traps under normal everyday circumstances. Not routinely checking doors for traps is normal behavior and not at all STUPID. If you only had them roll when there was a trap that would be giving them Danger Sense for free.

I was addressing more the SOP! tangent than Common Sense itself.

Note that above I used the words "plausible and relevant to the action." So, no, I wouldn't expect a guy walking through a normal shopping mall door to check it for traps, so that the one time it is booby-trapped by cultists, I'd say his SOP doesn't apply. But if it's the party's thief exploring a dungeon, then having SOP! on his sheet means he doesn't have to tell the GM that he's checking for door traps, prodding suspicious stretches of flooring or listening carefully at corners. If we go back to the RAW description of Serendipity, it has a similar GM-check on plausibility, although pure Serendipity does allow for coincidences further up the tight end of the bell-curve.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Otaku

It does mention the GM is free to make you pay (in terms of in-game finances) for reloading your weapon, but it does not suggest that a SOP is handled like the Compulsive Behavior Disadvantage. It is a Perk because it provides a minor in-game benefit, and ought to be fairly simple. Now if you want to use them to justify taking a related Disadvantage, more power to ya. Then it goes from "I do this when I am able." to "I must do this or I'll freak out!". I also worry that maybe the term "SOP" and its real world uses are confusing the game use; if in game terms it isn't going to be a minor net positive, it's probably a Quirk and not a Perk.

The assumption is that you are doing these things on adventures/missions.

At least, if I actually understand how Perks in general and SOP specifically function. Now if I have that wrong... okay, anyone willing to direct me to what I missed? Be it in a supplement, a Kromm quote, etc.? ^^'

All the perk does is replace having to say that you are doing the thing:

Originally Posted by GURPS Power-Ups 2: Perks p. 15

Standard Operating Procedure exempts you from having to tell the GM that your PC is doing something that’s second nature for him.

It doesn't make doing the thing a free action, or not require any typical rolls or anything of the sort. So having an SOP perk for always checking doors for traps still takes a few seconds or more and still requires a Per-based Traps roll.

The perk is realistic, and for instance appears in Tactical Shooting. For an action to be SOP, you actually need to be routinely doing it. Other than not having to state specifically that you are doing it, the action is exactly the same as if you had specifically told the GM that's what you are doing.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Part of this may be you have a greater knowledge of SOP for GURPS than some of us do (for sure me!). I had no idea this game had an SOP for digging latrines. This sounds more like a military standard operating procedure and not the GURPS trait... give or take an adventure (or entire campaign) with a particular combat setting.

The perk is a generic catch-all trait that can apply to any action you think that you want your character to be assumed to have done. Always having a proper latrine at a bivouac site definitely qualifies, and in games with rolls for infection and contagion has clear rules effects.

If you really insist on only published SOPs, several of them would be inconvenient or detrimental to always be doing. If you treat them as a list for Common Sense, every time the PC doesn't specifically state that they are doing any of the following:
* Sit with their back to a wall with cover to exits.
* Top off a fuel tank after any driving.
* Close and lock a door.
* Constantly check crowds with Body Language and Observation for threats.
* Put a fresh battery in any piece of electronics after use.
* Clean their weapons during downtime.
* Seek out cover when moving.
* Have a bug-out bag ready nearby.
They would get an IQ roll to be told not doing these things would be STUPID. Which not only is a waste of time for everybody, I think it's also pretty obvious that under many conditions not doing these things isn't STUPID. Doing all of these things all the time is at the very least pretty obsessive, if not actively detrimental.

I think we just disagree on real world common sense, and probably what SOP Perks in GURPS really mean. If I've got it wrong, hopefully we can straighten me out.

I'm not really sure what you think real world common sense is. Always having a loaded firearm doesn't really seem to fit a conventional definition of common sense, but it is the Off Screen Reload* perk exactly, for example.

To me, common sense, in real life, largely includes things that the GURPS trait addresses; most Darwin Awards, for example, would get an IQ roll if attempted by a GURPS character with Common Sense.

The game trait definitely doesn't have anything to do with hyper-preparedness. It is about not doing STUPID things. Not being hyper-prepared is normal and not STUPID at all.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I was addressing more the SOP! tangent than Common Sense itself.

Otaku keeps saying that real world common sense should include this kind of hyper-preparedness, and of course NDD's original build equated the GURPS Common Sense with "All possible SOPs, all the time"; these posts were what I was addressing.

I think that if I wanted to make the guy that was cinematically always prepared for whatever contingency, I'd take a couple of relevant SOP perks, Combat Reflexes and a couple of Gizmos.