Can Be Stolen

[dataweaver]

I have an Ability with the Can Be Stolen modifier, which means that it can also be loaned and/or given away. How would I go about modifying the build so that I have the ability to create another one (after acquiring enough characer points to pay for it) after losing or gifting the first one, or even in anticipation of gifting it? Zero-point feature, Perk, UB, or other? That is, the ability isn't so much the super-gadget as it is the ability to build the super-gadget. Repeatedly.

It's kind of like Unique, except that you retain the option to buy it again once you've stockpiled enough points to pay for it.

[Kelly Pedersen]

If it's not Unique, then by default it can be replaced, no special modifiers required. That said, non-Unique gadgets can still require substantial effort to replace, and what sort of effort should probably be defined when you first take the ability with the Gadget limitations. If it's a device that an inventor built in the first place, I'd use those rules. As a rule of thumb, I'd use the point value of the ability granted (before reductions for Gadget limitations) to judge the Complexity of the device: 1 point is Simple, up to 10 points is Average, up to 40 points is Complex, and higher is Amazing.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

If it's not Unique, then by default it can be replaced, no special modifiers required.

Technically true, but along with this is the fact that it's assumed to cease working for the new owner unless the new owner pays points for it. This, of course, may be acceptable.

[Varyon]

I believe Chinese Elemental Powers (or maybe just Powers) introduced the idea of being able to buy a "backup" of an ability at 1/5th the cost, allowing you to keep using it (by switching to the backup) if a foe hits you with Negated Advantage, you "burn out" the ability with a failed Power Stunt, or similar. Letting you build a backup Gadget for the same 1/5th price should work.

Arguably, this is abusable, where a character could essentially purchase a Gadget at double normal cost and equip the entire (6-person) party with copies, without the others needing to pay anything for the privilege. It's up to the GM if something like that is permissible. Personally, I'd be fine with someone having a backup or two that he gives out as a loaner from time to time, but things would get hairy if he just up and gave out the Gadgets to other PC's, granting them the relevant Advantage for "free."

I'm not certain if this should be compatible with Unique*. Letting the player purchase all instances in this manner from the beginning is probably fine, but later replacing some of the broken/stolen/whatever Gadgets at this price is a bit iffy. Personally, I'd probably allow the character to keep replacing at the 1/5th price so long as he retained at least one such Gadget, but if all were lost he wouldn't be able to make a replacement without spending the full point value.

*Unique mechanically means "Points are Lost if Gadget is," not necessarily that the item is one-of-a-kind.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Technically true, but along with this is the fact that it's assumed to cease working for the new owner unless the new owner pays points for it. This, of course, may be acceptable.

As written, Can Be Stolen allows the gadget to continue to work for the guy who took it unless you halve the value of the limitation. Can you cite where the books say that it stops working unless the new owner pays points for it, or is that a house rule (albeit a sensible one)?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

As written, Can Be Stolen allows the gadget to continue to work for the guy who took it unless you halve the value of the limitation. Can you cite where the books say that it stops working unless the new owner pays points for it, or is that a house rule (albeit a sensible one)?

It's essentially a special case of advantages granted during play, so it functions however that functions in the game setting. However, it's clearly not the intent of the rules to allow multiple free copies of a device to be spread among party members.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's essentially a special case of advantages granted during play, so it functions however that functions in the game setting. However, it's clearly not the intent of the rules to allow multiple free copies of a device to be spread among party members.

I suspect that that's where the bit about replacing it being difficult is supposed to factor in: if you can't just walk into the storehouse and pull out a replacement, it's not really a “free” copy: someone has to put in the effort to cause there to be multiple instances of the gadget. The question is who, and how?

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Unique mechanically means "Points are Lost if Gadget is," not necessarily that the item is one-of-a-kind.

That's part of what's bothering me: as I just said to Anthony, Can Be Stolen already includes the notion that the original owner must work to replace a stolen gadget, with the implication being that said effort replaces the need to pay points for it — which implies that the effort needed should he comparable to the effort needed to earn enough character points to buy the gadget again. If that's the case, then Unique only makes sense if it does mean “one of a kind” (i.e., if you lose it, you probably aren't going to be able to replace it, even if you acquire enough points to pay for it again; replacing it, if it's possible at all, is the subject of an epic adventure as the party this in search of another instance of whatever made the gadget unique.)

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

As written, Can Be Stolen allows the gadget to continue to work for the guy who took it unless you halve the value of the limitation. Can you cite where the books say that it stops working unless the new owner pays points for it, or is that a house rule (albeit a sensible one)?

In 3e supers, gadget limitiation with "can be stolen" would allow a stolen item to be used in the session/adventure it was obtained in, then it would be "reserved for study"/"burnt out but repairable" etc. until the character used points (but if i recall correctly it was reduced points). So Bat-Man can use Mr. Freeze's gun on Freeze's mooks, but he can't just build an arsonal of freeze gun, intant-grow man-trap vines, laughing gas, trained cats, trick umbrellas, etc. without paying extra points. He probably does pay points for "one-time use, only in the bat-cave" as he's used them from the trophy cases before, at least in the DCAU.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

That's part of what's bothering me: as I just said to Anthony, Can Be Stolen already includes the notion that the original owner must work to replace a stolen gadget, with the implication being that said effort replaces the need to pay points for it — which implies that the effort needed should he comparable to the effort needed to earn enough character points to buy the gadget again.

The third implication is clearly untrue, or there would be no additional point discount for Unique -- as Unique devices can be 'replaced' by paying the point cost again (technically it's a new and different unique device that happens to have the same properties as the old one).