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Old 08-24-2019, 12:33 PM   #71
maximara
 
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I was always fine with experience drain. No wonkier than a magical ray of anti-magic.

I've even ported over the "negative energy drain" into my games, it deals out temporary (until healed/cured/exorcised) Skill check penalties.
That's because you never met one of those vampire variants that were warriors and had multiple attacks per round and could drain up to 4 levels per attack. Surprise, you're a rookie again, these 5 years of campaign never happened.
On the bright side, they didn't care much if you were a fighter with 100+ HP or a wizard with about 40.
There was something even worse. See I had heard vague things about The Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires and wonder 'what would happen if a high level monk became a vampire?

Result: Mr Sponge - a 16th level vampire monk. Needless to say that didn't go well for anyone that thought getting in range of his touch was a good idea.

Having 4 attacks per combat round with the drain 2 levels per attack is totally insane and if you used the Dragon article "He’s Got a Lot to Kick About" (issue #53) that improved the monk to where they were on par with all the kung fu movies of the time it was worst.

Quick frankly the idea of a vampire draining knowledge was not only insanely goofy but didn't fit any type of mythological vampire known. It came off like the Magic-user not be able to wear armor rule - the rule came first and then there where was a lot of crappy BSing to try and explain how the rule made sense (which it didn't).

I even make a joke about the magic-user.

Orc warrior: What give with that guy in the back?
Orc commander: You idiot. He's clearly a magic-user. Archers, crossbowmen, Hit him with every missile weapon we have. Put him down. We'll hold off the front row.

Mr Sponge was played with a comedy relief tone:

Mr Sponge: Oh guests. Good I'm starving (to person in front of him)
Mr Sponge: slap, slap, slap slap. You don't look too good.
Mr Sponge: slap, slap, slap slap. Boy that didn't improve your looks any.
Mr Sponge: slap, slap... Oh you're dead. Well nice appetizer. Who's the main course?

Last edited by maximara; 08-24-2019 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 08-24-2019, 02:04 PM   #72
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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That's because you never met one of those vampire variants that were warriors and had multiple attacks per round and could drain up to 4 levels per attack.
Of course we did. So? It comes with the territory of terrible ruleset.

If you're playing D&D you have to accept that you are playing D&D.
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Old 08-24-2019, 04:31 PM   #73
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Of course we did. So? It comes with the territory of terrible ruleset.

If you're playing D&D you have to accept that you are playing D&D.
Ah but 3e and later realized 'hey this is dumb let's change it'. Besides there were dozens of articles in Dragon magazine on how to "fix" things...and in some cases they made thing worse. :-) For example, "Varieties of Vampires" (Dragon #25) listed some 14 vampires from actual mythology.

Some of these things were nightmarish on their own but trow in the D&D abilities on top of what the myth gave them you have a major problem.

"Anananngel (Philippines): A flying head with entrails filled with blood after feeding. It charms at minus 2 and can throw a fear spell at minus 3. There is a 50% chance that it is not undead, but a living witch. As such, it will not be turned by a cleric."

I should mention that this little piece of joy showed up up in the 1981 Fiend Folio as the Penanggalan.
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:10 PM   #74
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Ah but 3e and later realized 'hey this is dumb let's change it'.
I didn't think it was "dumb". That particular power worked, did what it was designed do, and was scary as heck.

3e did nothing to make D&D into a good rulesset. Because it kept levels and classes.
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:24 PM   #75
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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3e did nothing to make D&D into a good rulesset. Because it kept levels and classes.
3e made a lot of things more consistent and clear. That's pretty clear value added.
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Old 08-24-2019, 06:12 PM   #76
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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3e made a lot of things more consistent and clear. That's pretty clear value added.
Yes. It's very obvious to those of us who are currently playing 2e. Attribute tables, To hit, Saving Throws, "always roll high" and more. We kind of wish we had not gone quite so far back in our nostalgia.
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Old 08-24-2019, 06:55 PM   #77
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Yes. It's very obvious to those of us who are currently playing 2e.
Exactly. And I've a buddy who only runs D&D (1974), and has a full table for his monthly game.

Every game, every edition, has it's adherents and detractors.



I mean The Fantasy Trip is unironically back ffs.
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Old 08-26-2019, 11:12 AM   #78
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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The main problem with that explanation is it makes the base skill level of low level D&D character even more pathetic by GURPS standards.
Does it, though? Avoiding armor (since that functions differently in the two games), and staying with average characters at first level (so the abstract HP doesnít rear its ugly head too much), a first level DnD Warrior with 10ís in all attributes has a 55% chance (roll a 9 or higher on d20) to hit his twin. With 3 seconds of Evaluate and an attack, if we assume his GURPS equivalent has a professional level (12) at hitting things, heís rolling against effective skill 15, for a 95% chance to hit. His twin, meanwhile, can Parry at 9, or do a Retreating Parry at 10 (or Retreating Dodge at 11), for a 37.5%, 50%, or 62.5% chance to defend. That works out to around a 59%, 48%, or 36% probability of actually hitting, respectively, implying the idea of a level 1 warrior having skill 12 in GURPS isnít terribly far off (and considering he has this level of skill in nearly every weapon skill - absent certain Feats, a DnD warrior is equally proficient in basically all non-exotic weapons - thatís actually somewhat impressive).
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:34 PM   #79
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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Does it, though? Avoiding armor (since that functions differently in the two games), and staying with average characters at first level (so the abstract HP doesnít rear its ugly head too much), a first level DnD Warrior with 10ís in all attributes has a 55% chance (roll a 9 or higher on d20) to hit his twin.
If one uses the alternative 3d6 method things get a lot better as the number to roll doesn't change but the percentage to get it does. A 55% is close enough that we can call it a 10 on a 3d6 (50%).

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With 3 seconds of Evaluate and an attack, if we assume his GURPS equivalent has a professional level (12) at hitting things, heís rolling against effective skill 15, for a 95% chance to hit.
"An object's Armor Class is a measure of how difficult it is to deal damage to the object when striking it (because the object has no chance of dodging out of the way)." (DMG5 pg 246)

A piece of paper has AC 11 ie a piece of unmoving paper that can't dodge or pArry has only a 45% chance of being hit and damaged. You can face palm now. :-)
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Old 08-26-2019, 03:23 PM   #80
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Default Re: Translating the concept of HP from D&D (and the like) to GURPS

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If one uses the alternative 3d6 method things get a lot better as the number to roll doesn't change but the percentage to get it does. A 55% is close enough that we can call it a 10 on a 3d6 (50%).
A first level warrior of average stats doesn’t have a 55% chance to hit an AC 10 target if using 3d6, he has a 62.5% chance, because he still needs to roll a 9 or higher.

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A piece of paper has AC 11 ie a piece of unmoving paper that can't dodge or pArry has only a 45% chance of being hit and damaged. You can face palm now. :-)
That’s an oddity of the rules, not an indication that a DnD character has an incredibly low skill. Note a person with average stats (like my warrior, above) who isn’t defending themselves has AC 10 to hit, while one that is defending themselves (but not doing a Full Round Defense, or whatever DnD calls it) has... AC 10 to hit (you don’t see a difference unless the target has a Dex/Dodge/similar bonus to AC).

And, yes, this does mean an unarmored Warrior is easier to hit and damage than a life sized cardboard cutout of him (provided said cutout is thick enough for +1 AC). DnD is weird, which is a big part of why I favor GURPS. This doesn’t mean a character who gets converted from DnD to GURPS should somehow have trouble attacking cardboard.

Edit: I should note my memory of DnD is from 3e/3.5e. For example, your quoted definition of AC sounds more like Flatfooted AC (a surprised/immobile character’s “roll this to hit me” number).
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