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 08-22-2019, 02:55 PM #1 Raekai World's Worst Detective     Join Date: May 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength Hey, all! Background I've loved Knowing Your Own Strength since the moment it was born. Logarithmic ST tickles my fancy. I haven't actually used it as a GM or as a player—it's been a little fantasy of mine, though. So, I'm finally planning on using it, and I noticed an odd problem. Damage is also done logarithmically and HP is still quadratic, which seemed fine, but I realized that wounding modifiers don't make much sense to me. Multiplicative modifiers for damage, wounding, injury, etc. seem weird and would log[arithm]ically (get it?) use addition because multiplying damage doesn't scale right even with quadratic HP. Of course, that doesn't make sense for damage—unless I'm using some kind of logarithmic HP/injury/wounding system. I think the other solution would be to make damage quadratic again, right? (I'm not actively looking for feedback on this part, but I'm still happy to have someone nitpick or prove me wrong... politely). Issue But there is a logarithmic solution: Conditional Injury. So, I'm wondering how to resolve logarithmic damage with logarithmic injury. Now, I'm hoping that it's as easy as saying "take the logarithmic values for ST, use them for HP, and plug those into the Robustness Threshold Table", so RT 6 would be for logarithmic HP 16–18. I guess, technically, you wouldn't even need to do that since HP doesn't matter outside of determining RT, but logarithmic HP would make RT cheaper and tighten the bands on the breakpoints (though, I'm not sure if that's a benefit or not). Now, that seems too easy, so I'm waiting for someone to bust in and say "wrong! You're going to have to re-tool the whole system!" Before you say that, my guess is that I might have to use logarithmic values for the Penetrating Damage column of the Wound Potential Table because, since logarithmic HP and logarithmic damage are smaller, logarithmic Penetrating Damage should be smaller too, right? But, if that's the case, then it gets weird. Logarithmic Wound Potential Table Code: ```PD WP 1 -2 0 1 2–6 2 7–8 3 9–12 4 13–16 5 17–18 6 19–21 7``` That... doesn't seem right. Anthony's Logarithmic Damage looks like it could help, but it's a bit harder for me to piece together and resolve with Conditional Injury. So, how can I make this work better? Examples Spoiler:   Note about DR Spoiler:   __________________ Raekai's links: My blog about conlanging, GURPS, and other stuff! — Magic to RPM Complete Conversion Version 2 (Incomplete) Perussinexian Magic 2 (Outdated) My old blog! (Unused) Last edited by Raekai; 08-29-2019 at 08:41 AM.
 08-22-2019, 03:25 PM #3 Anthony   Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength I was never able to get my logarithmic injury system simple enough to be useful, without losing a lot of detail. I also don't have conditional injury. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.
 08-22-2019, 11:44 PM #4 dataweaver     Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: the frozen wastelands of Southern California Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength Conditional Injury has a section in it about how to apply DR. To me, the one thing that needs to be done to get Conditional Injury and Know Your Own Strength to match up is to replace the damage roll. When I join the two, I convert damage ratings based on the maximum damage they can inflict, then I apply a penalty to that if your margin of success on the attack vs. defense roll was low: -3 for a margin of 1, -2 for a margin of 2, -1 for a margin of 3, and no penalty for a margin of 4 or more. So a 2d6 attack is rated as 12 damage, which becomes a Wound Potential of 4; then a marginal hit can reduce that as low as 1. (I did an analysis of how the spreads of various numbers of damage dice get mapped to Wound Potential. What I found was that the resulting spread of Wound Potential is nearly always a five-point spread, with a strong bias toward the upper end; and the more damage dice, the less likely the lower end is. In practice, at least half of the results show up in the upper two levels; and most of what's left show up in the next two levels below that. So a “damage roll” that generates a Wound Potential directly really ought to follow a similar pattern.) __________________ Point balance is a myth.[1][2][3][4]
 08-23-2019, 12:23 AM #5 RyanW ☣     Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southeast NC Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength I've been fiddling with a version where you start at +0 damage and RT 4, and each +1 ST is worth +1/3 to each (round to nearest). Instead of rolling damage and converting to wound potential, you just use the damage as wound potential directly. Roll a d6 and give -1 on a 1-2, +1 on a 5-6. Swing is worth +1 damage. That's the bulk of it, but there's more detail (including how armor works) in this thread. __________________ RyanW Free Real Estate meme: *fades in popularity* Other memes: It's free real estate
08-23-2019, 03:02 PM   #6
Raekai
World's Worst Detective

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RyanW I've been fiddling with a version where you start at +0 damage and RT 4, and each +1 ST is worth +1/3 to each (round to nearest). Instead of rolling damage and converting to wound potential, you just use the damage as wound potential directly. Roll a d6 and give -1 on a 1-2, +1 on a 5-6. Swing is worth +1 damage. That's the bulk of it, but there's more detail (including how armor works) in this thread.
That's a neat thread! It actually helped me think differently about this. (Though, I'm of the mind that I would keep the damage roll—while it's one more thing to do, my players and I love rolling dice!)

Fixing Logarithmic Wounding Potential

So, the above Logarithmic Wounding Potential Table is obviously a bit messed up. I had to start really thinking with logarithms. In standard Conditional Injury, every ×10 HP results in +6 RT (thanks to the Size and Speed/Range Table). So, it follows that, if ×10 is +10 in the scale used in Knowing Your Own Strength, then every +10 HP should be +6 RT. Either that, or it might have to be ×10^2 is +10 because standard HP is quadratic, which would make it every +20 HP is +6 RT.

If RTa is ×10 HP is +6 RT, RTb is +10 HP is +6 RT, and RTc is +20 HP is +6 RT, then...

Code:
```HP  RTa  RTb  RTc
1   -2   -2   -2
11   4    4    1
21   6   10    4
31   7   16    7
41   8   22   10
51   8   28   13```
Though, theoretically, if ST are HP, RT should be even across Basic Lift, right?

Code:
```BL       RTa  RTb  RTc
2.5       1   -2   -2
25        4    4    1
250       7   10    4
2500      10  16    7
25000     13  22   10
250000    16  28   13```
And this is where the magic happens. Because, now, there's an obvious pattern between RTa and RTc. RTc is just RTa-3, which might mean that my initial set-point was wrong—I just put ST/HP 1 to RT -2 because that's what Conditional Injury does.

It makes calculating RT from logarithmic ST much easier:
RT = (ST × 0.3) + 0.7
Yes, the parentheses don't need to be there, but it looks more organized to me.

Leftover Weird Bits

So, to have RT -2, you'd need to have HP -9. Yeah, negative 9. That's... very different from the original working of this system, and I don't know how something like this will affect small things hurting each other.

I'm not sure what to do with weapons/damage or if I should just leave it. RyanW's thread has some interesting ideas. Really, there should be a way to overhaul weapons to better fit this scheme. If there's a correlation between weapon damage and a force multiplier that says, for example, +1 damage represents ×1.n power, I'm not familiar with it. If it exists, it would just be a matter of converting that multiplier in addition.

As mentioned elsewhere, you could forgo even having swing damage and just make swung attacks have a +1 severity modifier.

There was another weird bit that I thought of, but I can't recall it now...

08-24-2019, 05:48 PM   #8
Raekai
World's Worst Detective

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RyanW I've been fiddling with a version where you start at +0 damage and RT 4, and each +1 ST is worth +1/3 to each (round to nearest). Instead of rolling damage and converting to wound potential, you just use the damage as wound potential directly. Roll a d6 and give -1 on a 1-2, +1 on a 5-6. Swing is worth +1 damage. That's the bulk of it, but there's more detail (including how armor works) in this thread.
Quote:
💡 For anyone who can't see it, that's supposed to be a light bulb.

I think I get it now. By Anthony's and RyanW's powers combined, I think I have a better grasp on this.

After reading Anthony's comment (and thank you for taking the time to read up on the stuff), I thought, "Well, wouldn't it be ideal to scale it the same as lifting power?" (i.e., +10 is ×10). To be fair, I still haven't answered that question for myself. Is is ideal? Necessary? More or less realistic? I personally don't know enough to know. Should damage scale with lifting power? That's outside of my expertise.

But, instead of just saying the same thing over and over, I tried to model that +10 = ×10. So, RT = ST / 3 + 3.33. It quickly dawned on me as to why "ST/3" seemed so familiar—it was RyanW's thread and above post.

In that case, after changing the table to match the Size and Speed/Range Table with rounded values (per RyanW), it should be...
• ST/HP 1: WP/RT -2
• ST/HP 2: WP/RT 0
• ST/HP 3–4: WP/RT 1
• ST/HP 5–7: WP/RT 2
• ST/HP 8–10: WP/RT 3
• ST/HP 11–13: WP/RT 4
• ST/HP 14–16: WP/RT 5
• ST/HP 17–19: WP/RT 6
• ST/HP 20–22: WP/RT 7

Or, after matching with minimum values (per Anthony), it should be...
• ST/HP 1: WP/RT -2
• ST/HP 2: WP/RT 0
• ST/HP 3–5: WP/RT 1
• ST/HP 6–8: WP/RT 2
• ST/HP 9–11: WP/RT 3
• ST/HP 12–14: WP/RT 4
• ST/HP 15–17: WP/RT 5
• ST/HP 18–20: WP/RT 6
• ST/HP 21–23: WP/RT 7

The numbers are a bit trickier, but it slightly increases the resolution. I'm okay with the lumpy cost progression because it makes me think of Basic Speed, and I have no problem with that. You could buy/sell HP or Striking ST to move things up or down.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony For Swing damage, add +5 to ST. If you have a damage bonus, +1 per die is equal to +3 ST. For weapons with flat adds, that gets into the addition and subtraction situation. For weapons with flat damage, look up their average damage on the WP table, and give them an effective ST of WP*5+10 (for intermediate values, feel free to tweak up or down). Now, for the addition and subtraction part. This, unfortunately, involves table lookup, but it's the same table as before. You need to start by converting WP to linear damage. To do this, first, when making the WP roll (above) keep track of any leftover (so if you succeed by 2, that's still WP 0, but you have 2 leftover). Your linear damage is equal to the minimum amount given for that WP, plus 10% per point of leftover (drop all fractions). Apply all flat adds and penalties, look up the result on the WP table, and that's your final WP.
This is what I'm still confused about, especially the parts in bold. Do all of those numbers remain the same with the ×10 is +10 scale? Also, what is the average damage of a weapon? The average damage when being wielded by someone with quadratic ST 10? What does the effective ST do? If weapons can be given an effective ST, can't armor get an effective -ST to avoid the table lookup and conversion? I really don't know.

So, I think this means WP = MoS / 3, fixed damage weapon effective ST = average damage WP / 3 + 10, and severity is (WP - RT) / 3. Right? I'm still not sure about the rest.

08-24-2019, 06:54 PM   #9
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Raekai This is what I'm still confused about, especially the parts in bold. Do all of those numbers remain the same with the ×10 is +10 scale?
No, +10 = x10 means you multiply ST or MoS by 0.6 to get WP.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Raekai Also, what is the average damage of a weapon?
That's for fixed damage weapons, such as guns.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Raekai What does the effective ST do? If weapons can be given an effective ST, can't armor get an effective -ST to avoid the table lookup and conversion?
Effective ST is what you roll against. You can implement armor as a ST modifier, but it will involve (guess what) table lookup -- for example, DR 10 will reduce a 1d attack to zero (-infinity on a log scale), but will reduce a 6d-1 attack by only half (-3 on a +10 = x10 scale).

There are simpler ways of doing this, but they all involve table lookup, it's just a question of which table lookup you use.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.

08-24-2019, 09:29 PM   #10
Raekai
World's Worst Detective

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony No, +10 = x10 means you multiply ST or MoS by 0.6 to get WP.
Ooh, that's an ugly number. It'd probably be easier to express that as "For every 3 points you succeed by, add +2 to your WP." That loses half of the resolution, though. "Multiply your MoS by 2. For every 3 points, add +1 to your WP" isn't too bad, and that's fairly easy to remember.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony That's for fixed damage weapons, such as guns.
Okay, that makes much more sense. Thanks!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony Effective ST is what you roll against.
That makes sense too now.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony You can implement armor as a ST modifier, but it will involve (guess what) table lookup -- for example, DR 10 will reduce a 1d attack to zero (-infinity on a log scale), but will reduce a 6d-1 attack by only half (-3 on a +10 = x10 scale).
Ah, bummer. I was hoping that DR 7 (2d) would be ST 16 and that you could just subtract 16 from the ST of the attack. But it doesn't seem to check out. Weirdly enough (and I don't know if I stumbled across a weird coincidence), it seems like half of that ST works.

So, DR 7 is 2d, which is ST 16. Divide that by 2 for ST 8. Let's say the attack is 4d, which is ST 24. ST 24 - 8 is ST 16, which is 2d. And 4d - 2d = 2d. This works for 6d, which is ST 32. ST 32 - 8 is ST 24, which is 4d. And 6d - 2d is 4d. Going back down, let's say the attack is 2d, which is ST 16, of course. ST 16 - 8 = ST 8, which is 1d-4, which is neat because it still offers a small chance for damage to get through (though, that doesn't affect what we're doing here).

So, DR 28 is 8d, which is ST 40. Divide that by 2 for 20. You can tell this is already broken. If the attack is 8d, which is ST 40, then it's 40 - 20, which is 20, which is then 3d. But 8d would obviously stop 8d.

Then, I thought, what if 16 didn't turn into 8 from division? What if it's subtraction?

So, DR 28 is 8d, which is ST 40. ST 40 - 8 is ST 32. Let's say the attack is 11d, which is ST 52. ST 52 - 32 is ST 20, which is 3d. And 11d - 8d is 3d. It would mean converting DR to dice to ST and making it ST - 8, but that's not a big deal for an overhaul.

And I realized that you don't even have to do that. DR * 8/7 (~1.143) gives you the ST value.

DR 70 (20d) × 8/7 is ST 80. Let's say the attack is 30d, which is ST 128. ST 128 - 80 is ST 48, which is 10d. 30d - 20d is 10d.

DR 126 (36d) × 8/7 is ST 144. Let's say the attack is 36d, which is ST 152. ST 152 - 144 is 8, which is 1d-4.

Did I stumble upon a solution for DR? Or am I kidding myself?

If I did stumble upon a solution for DR, could this theoretically extend to all addition and subtraction? I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but...

 Tags conditional injury, hit points, knowing your own strength, kyos, logarithm

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