Zero Damage Result

[KevinJ]

The easy fix is that you can't do damage less than 1 hit per die rolled. Thus, a 3d-27 die roll will do a minimum of 3 hits.

But why do something easy when you can make backhanded insults instead?

[JustAnotherJarhead]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

The easy fix is that you can't do damage less than 1 hit per die rolled. Thus, a 3d-27 die roll will do a minimum of 3 hits.

wait...

If that is the easy fix, then what do you do with a weapon like a Cutlass where it's damage rating is 2d-2? 0-10 hits Averaging 5 hits

so... The Cutlass is actually a 2-10 hit weapon? averaging 5.5 hits?

granted it's not a game changer, but would impact combat effect if opponents were armored, vs: unarmored.

[Senturian]

Originally Posted by Original_Carl

Dear Fantasy Trip Forums,

I never thought this would happen to me.

It started out as a typical ITL session running through The Death Test. Then in the heat of combat, one of the players rolled three 1s on a javelin throw at a bear and did...no damage.


There was much weeping and gnashing of teeth at the game table. Questions included,

"WHAT?"
"Come ON! Are you serious?!"
"Why cant we roll three different damage dice if it's x3?"
"How does a critical hit with any weapon do NO DAMAGE?!"
"Come ON! What is your problem?"
"Does that mean we can get negative damage results?"
"Your game sucks!"

We got through it. In the interest of fairness I let her roll three damage results and add them together.


-Carl

Players desire to advance their characters. Once in awhile a setback occurs. it's one reason we play the game.
Everyone should laugh, thank Karma (the substitute GM) and remember it fondly thru the years. Though it may take longer for some to come to that conclusion.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherJarhead

wait...

If that is the easy fix, then what do you do with a weapon like a Cutlass where it's damage rating is 2d-2? 0-10 hits Averaging 5 hits

so... The Cutlass is actually a 2-10 hit weapon? averaging 5.5 hits?

granted it's not a game changer, but would impact combat effect if opponents were armored, vs: unarmored.

Also compare to the alternative ST 10 weapon, the Hammer, at 1d+1. It averages 4.5 per hit. And compare to the ST 11 small axe at 1d+2, which averages 5.5 per hit.

i.e. Changing the damage rules to satisfy people who get upset when they roll zero damage, skews the weapon balance, which already includes mostly weapons which can't roll zero damage.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherJarhead

I personally go a little crazy when I get ANY critical hit, and subsequently roll a very low damage,... it's like wtf?

what good is a a heroic critical hit (presumed you slipped your blade in past an opening in his armor, struck a nerve center, etc...) if it results in NO actual damage?

The day that a "regular" strike with a shortsword, especially a marginal hit just squeaking in under your adjDX delivers MORE damage, than your companions heroic "triple" damage critical hit with his two-handed sword, is the day that you say... Really?

I follow what you're saying and have certainly seen a fair proportion of players react this way.

Especially in GURPS, where critical success can happen much more often if your skill is high (so it's not just an equal chance for everyone) but the only certain result is the target doesn't get their usual active defense, and a roll on a critical hit table is made to see what happens ... with lots of nice juicy interesting results ... and common results also being actually there is no additional special effect.

It seems to me that there is a common and natural reaction that people feel like rolling a 3 or 4 ought to be great and special. As JustAnotherJarhead wrote above, "heroic" - but the rules don't really say it's heroic - it's doubled or tripled, which can be an enormous effect (recently someone in one of my games practically one-shot-killed a dinosaur with a light crossbow that way), but it does require a damage roll as well, and can turn out not to be that great.

So it seems to me that on the one hand, some players may tend to add a lot of meaning and expectation to a low roll, and it can feel disappointing both to them, and to have to let down their excitement. On the other hand, altering the rules does sway the game balance, and if the great effects are given to a random roll that's only based on luck, that can mess with the way the game works in ways that other players may not appreciate (e.g. there are also players who like the way it works as written, and other who don't like critical hits at all, etc).


Really this is a House Rules thread - players can easily alter the rules on this, if they can agree.


Personally I'd much rather have some minimum amount on a to-hit roll of 3 or 4, than have all weapons have a minimum damage, because that has very little effect on the average weapon damage, and it seems to me there's a choice of weapons where only a few can roll zero in the first place.

(I'm not sure why players who are so upset by rolling zero damage end up choosing the weapons that can roll zero damage.)

[Original_Carl]

Can anyone point out a Zero damage example in any of the rule books that doesn't have armor as a factor?

In other words, is there an example in ITL or Melee or Wizard where someone rolls damage for a dagger, javelin, small bow, etc and rolls a 1, resulting in no effect? I've been combing and have found nothing.

[JustAnotherJarhead]

No, I cant.

But you bring up a good point, there should be one scenario.

I know in my own experience , it was always the dude with the small bow, and the cutlass that would land a first shot, well placed hit...but come up with zeroes , and it happened enough, I was like...screw that!

Too many times in a battle, where your whole party is trying desperately to fall the mighty beastie... and its 5 hits here, then 4 hits there, then 6 hits....then...zero!

And if it had just been 1 more hit it would have mattered, like a DX penalty, or a knock down situation etc...

I nearly fanned a few times in the old rules , when I two fisted my bastard sword, in a time of need, praying for some high numbers to match my amazing to hit roll...only to roll 3d6-2 and get a 1, a 1 and a 2. Damn! My party was like...really???

Yea, it sucked. Lol

[Skarg]

Again, it's a trade-off. If you want to avoid zero damage, use a weapon that does more damage. They become available at ST 9.

All of the weapons that can do zero damage have a valuable benefit that seems to me more significant than the chance of doing zero damage, except if it particularly annoys you or the situation really calls for doing at least a point of damage. e.g.:

A javelin is a pole weapon, with all its attendant advantages.

A cutlass/saber does up to 10 damage for a ST 10 weapon, as often as it does zero, and averages 0.5 damage more than a hammer (the throwable ST 10 weapon which guarantees at least 2 points of damage, but only a max of 7).

A short bow is a ST 9 missile weapon that even a 32-point character could shoot twice per turn.

If you say they can't do zero damage, you'll be removing one of their drawbacks and making them better, bending their balance against the available choices that already do minimum 1 damage (e.g. rapier, hammer, spear, horsebow, almost any other weapon...).

[ecz]

the history of my past TFT adventures is full of tales of enemies or heroes rolling zero damage even after a critical hit. I cannot see a problem since damage, combat, wounds and critical results are somewhat abstract.


Simply we figure that for a reason or another the hit landed where it does not harm the target despite the (apparently) good to hit roll.

Nobody ever complained on this since 1987.

If it can help consider that even in the best and more complex tactical wargame ever created, Advanced Squad Leader (AH/MMP),it's quite possible that a critical hit or another good roll resolves in a NE ( No Effect )

So nothing strange or new for us.

[RVA_Grandpa]

Originally Posted by ecz

Simply we figure that for a reason or another the hit landed where it does not harm the target despite the (apparently) good to hit roll.

The arrow pierces Norm's wine skin, spilling it on the dungeon floor. Enraged, the dwarf raises his battle axe and charges.