Fiddling with Infinite Worlds

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Kromey

You don't have an infinity of universes .

This is the actual situation in the IW setting. There might be an actual infinity of universes somewhere but you don't have access to them.

There are less than 1000 worldlines on the books at IW headquarters and probably many, many less that are kept off the books.

[Kromey]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

This is the actual situation in the IW setting. There might be an actual infinity of universes somewhere but you don't have access to them.

There are less than 1000 worldlines on the books at IW headquarters and probably many, many less that are kept off the books.

Right, Infinity only knows of a thousand or so. But that's only because that's how many they've found so far.

My understanding of the setting is that there are infinite worlds out there -- or at least, there's a number large enough to be practically infinite. Infinity has only found a tiny fraction of what's out there, and all of those -- even those that "diverge" significantly from Homeline -- are all remarkably similar to Homeline. For starters, they all have an Earth...

We also know that worlds can shift quanta due to events taking place -- i.e. making them more "divergent" moves them further away from Homeline. I mean, this is one of Centrum's goals in the war, shifting more worlds out of Homeline's reach! Thus it stands to reason that the most divergent worlds are well outside the reach of either Homeline or Centrum, well beyond the 5-quanta band each can explore. A parallel whose "divergent point" is that the Earth never formed in the first place is quite likely to exist, and most probably would be either Q{really big number} or Q{really big negative number} -- meaning neither Homeline nor Centrum will ever find it, at least not until the 2-quanta barrier to travel is breached.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Actually, yes, the original Mirror Universe has a point of divergence. .

Not really. There's no possible point of divergence that could produce a situation where all the same humans exist, just with different personalities. (If only because in the Mirror Universe many of them would be dead having killed each other with infighting. There was some time in the MU's past when it was more like the regular universe's history doubtless, but there's no way a single choice could have generated such a perfect mirror.)

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Kromey

Right, Infinity only knows of a thousand or so. But that's only because that's how many they've found so far.

My understanding of the setting is that there are infinite worlds out there -- or at least, there's a number large enough to be practically infinite. Infinity has only found a tiny fraction of what's out there, and all of those -- even those that "diverge" significantly from Homeline -- are all remarkably similar to Homeline. For starters, they all have an Earth...

Not certain. There are at least 47 apparently valid settings that no one has come back from. Lack of a planet there could be one reason. It's not certain that there are an infinite or near-infinite number of worlds out there either. It's much more certain that there's aimited number of worlds you'll ever be able to reach with anything like current technology.

Also, Yrth/Banestorm is on the list but that's a world where the shape of the continents is different. That requires a very ancient "divergence point" indeed for older than the USL world.

Yet Yrth is Q5, basically as close to Homeline as any other Q5 world. While Lizardia is Q4 and Reich-5 which "diverged" only in the 1930s is off in Q3.

There is no physical process of "divergence" or timeline splitting going on in the default setting and similarity to Homeline does not determine prioximity to Homeline.

Also note that Echoes which are person for person identical to Homeline _except_ for the local date are found in Q6 and only in Q6. Itr is also only Echoes that move (except for a couple of weird lines that are probably more like Shiftrealms).

Really, you can do whatever you like but you're doing major alterations and not just a nip and a tuck much less a minor re-interpretation.

[Anonymous GM]

Just to refresh my own memory I went back and reread the info on this in the book, and I have to say, it's all left pretty vague. The canon answer is that nobody appears to have any real idea where universes come from. There are at least three contradictory theories mentioned, none of which actually have any evidence for them.

There's even a sidebar which explicitly discusses the possibility that Homeline could branch into multiple worldlines, based on the fact that precogs tend to see Homeline's future as a tree of branching timelines.

In other words, it all seems to have been left pretty wide open to be interpreted however is convenient - which is handy...

[Anonymous GM]

While I'm tinkering with core assumptions of the setting -

What effect does it have on the game if you remove the 'Infinity Unlimited is the sole governing authority on parachronic travel' aspect of the game? That's one of those things that everyone seems to acknowledge is a pure plot device that's there to keep things simple, but it strains credibility in a way all the scifi and fantasy elements don't - even the book basically just throws up its hands and says, "The UN put them in charge because... hey, look over there!" and then runs away.

What I'm pondering - is it really necessary for the setting? Let's say you take out the whole Big Secret Revealed to the UN Security Council. You make Infinity Unlimited the inventors and patent-holders of parachronic technology; they're a private multinational corporation, stupendously rich, but they don't have legal authority over what governments do with the technology. (Because let's be honest - I don't care if they revealed that God himself personally annointed Van Zandt the Saint of Parachronic Travel, there's no way the US Congress is gonna go along with that.)

What changes? Obviously Infinity has less control over what governments do with the technology, but I'm having a hard time seeing any immediate ramifications beyond that. You can still have the Patrol, Infinity can still have its own private army and the Miracle Workers and everything else.

But I may be missing something - is there any essential piece of the game lost of Infinity is "merely" a vastly wealthy multidimensional corporation?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Anonymous GM

What changes? Obviously Infinity has less control over what governments do with the technology, but I'm having a hard time seeing any immediate ramifications beyond that. You can still have the Patrol, Infinity can still have its own private army and the Miracle Workers and everything else.

No. You can't have the Patrol. Nobody has the authority to set one up. Instead various nations will make up their own rules. There will be no Secret. Homeline nations will embark on careers of conquest. There will be a new Imperialist Era with various nations racing to grab land and taking over. Meanwhile open trade with the more advanced worlds will spread the parachronic technology, and then they'll be in the imperialist race as well. Wars will break out all over the place.

[Anonymous GM]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No. You can't have the Patrol. Nobody has the authority to set one up.

Depends what you mean. If you mean "we police what everyone on Homeline does with the technology," you're correct. If you mean "private corporate army who serve the goals of our parent corporation and/or their clients, sometimes including major governments" well, we have loads of those on our Earth...

Instead various nations will make up their own rules. There will be no Secret. Homeline nations will embark on careers of conquest. There will be a new Imperialist Era with various nations racing to grab land and taking over. Meanwhile open trade with the more advanced worlds will spread the parachronic technology, and then they'll be in the imperialist race as well. Wars will break out all over the place.

How does the default setting actually prevent that from happening? In the current setting, the big governments actually do have parachronic travel; in theory Infinity can regulate what they do with it, but in practice they generally don't find out until a paracrime has already happened. Governments run parachronic ops without checking with Infinity first all the time in the default setting, even if they're required to license the technology instead of just having their own.

Heck, random smugglers and gangsters have their own off the books parachronic devices in the default setting.

Now, I can absolutely see your point that realistically you'd expect the Secret to last about thirty seconds with all these different interests running roughshod over the multiverse - but I don't see how the default setting of the game actually fixes that problem, either. I suppose if Infinity were the only ones with parachronic tech that might do it, but that's not true even in the book.

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by Anonymous GM

(Because let's be honest - I don't care if they revealed that God himself personally annointed Van Zandt the Saint of Parachronic Travel, there's no way the US Congress is gonna go along with that.)

If God personally anointed Van Zandt the Saint of Parachronic Travel wouldn't that make him a Grandmaster of the Cabal? And really? A Grandmaster would just mind control Congress if he wanted too.
More seriously it seems like the licensing shtick was a smoke-and-mirrors trick. He convinced them that infinity having sole jurisdiction was a good thing, because that would force them to rent the tech so Infinity could support itself. And then global political will has kept something from happening like... "judges one, through five I really need to to declare this scheme unconstitutional."
Finally there are some countries that said "Hell no."

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Anonymous GM

How does the default setting actually prevent that from happening? In the current setting, the big governments actually do have parachronic travel; in theory Infinity can regulate what they do with it, but in practice they generally don't find out until a paracrime has already happened.

Yeah but the mere existence of the patrol, and the treaty associated with is what restricts the various parties to generally covert operations in inhabited parallels. Which is why they generally don't find out until a paracrime has already happened. Invasions aren't instantaneous things, even using parachronic technology. There's plenty of time to interrupt them before the conquest is a done deal.

Similarly open contact is something Homeline governments just don't do because of the terms of the treaty, or at least the exceptions are rare.