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Old 11-13-2010, 12:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 View Post
If the signatories of the treaties that created the Triple Alliance and Triple Entente didn't honor their commitments, then the assassination of the Archduke would have been a purely internal Ottoman Empire matter. This would have caused a reshuffling of alliances, much behind-the-scenes complaining, and may have delayed WWI by years.
You mean Austro-Hungarian Empire matter; it happened to them, and it was because Servia no longer had a border with the Ottomans. And no, it was not. The assassins clearly had ties to Belgrade and St. Petersburg; the Servian government had been overthrown in 1904 by a very pro-Russian group of officers. It's something of a lose-lose situation: if the Habsburgs do nothing, it shows that the Servo-Russian alliance can just do whatever it wants to the Habsburgs and their dominion. Germany HAS to back Austria-Hungary, since otherwise Russia will just pick apart the Austro-Hungarian Empire. England was the real joker (Italy didn't honor its obligations, but it didn't really count at all), since it was propping up the Ottoman Empire against Russian expansion. If the Germans hadn't gotten dreams of challenging the British on the high seas, the UK would have had no reason to be allied against Germany.
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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Even with unrestricted sub warfare, Wilson was enough of an incompetent imbecile to keep the US out of the war, Britain collapses due to the blockade and sues for peace in late 1918/early 1919.
I think you over state the effect of the german u boat offensive of WW1. Yes it came close to bringing the uk to its knees but the introduction of the convoy system by the british effectively removed that as a possibility.
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:21 PM   #23
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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I think you over state the effect of the german u boat offensive of WW1. Yes it came close to bringing the uk to its knees but the introduction of the convoy system by the british effectively removed that as a possibility.
I think Apache was referring to a specific U-boat attack, Lusitania.
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Old 11-13-2010, 06:10 PM   #24
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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I think Apache was referring to a specific U-boat attack, Lusitania.
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Even with unrestricted sub warfare, Wilson was enough of an incompetent imbecile to keep the US out of the war, Britain collapses due to the blockade and sues for peace in late 1918/early 1919.
the bold and underlined bit was what i was replying too lol
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Old 11-13-2010, 06:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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I think you over state the effect of the german u boat offensive of WW1. Yes it came close to bringing the uk to its knees but the introduction of the convoy system by the british effectively removed that as a possibility.
Go read 'The Zimmerman Telegram' by Barbara Tuchman. I overstate nothing.
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Old 11-13-2010, 07:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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Simple.

Make the Kaiser not quite as stupid as in reality (or make Bismarck, et al, better at handling him...), and have the Zimmerman Telegram never happen.

Even with unrestricted sub warfare, Wilson was enough of an incompetent imbecile to keep the US out of the war, Britain collapses due to the blockade and sues for peace in late 1918/early 1919. Russia drops out of the war in 1917 (and becomes the USSR), France agrees to an armistice with Germany, new Cold War ensues for the next 10-20 years with various brushfire incidents and proxy wars. Japan annexes Korea and most of China.

Then, in 1938, something happens......


What about:

The war ends with an armistice. The peace of Geneva settles terms favorable to the Central Powers, who had the upper hand in the end. Germany doesn't get everything that it wanted by any means, but she does get the 'Central European Customs Union.'

All of Ireland is freed from British rule and united under the Republican allies of the Kaiser. No IRA terrorism, no Troubles, none of that.


The trade alliance expands over time, and states cooperate on security matters when confronted with the Bolshevik menace. In time, Germany comes to dominate the 'European Union.'

The Ottomans manage to hold onto large parts of their Near Eastern empire, at least for a few decades more. No mandate and no League of Nations.

No Nazis. No Holocaust. Millions of lives saved.


WW2 begins when Stalin invades the Polish provinces in 1939. Within four years, German and allied European troops have liberated the lands under the heel of the Soviets. The civilized world is horrified to learn the full tale of the Bolshevik atrocities and war crimes. Stalin and most of the Politburo are captured and placed on trial for genocide and other crimes against humanity. They are hanged in Nuremburg in 1945.

Israel is never created. Palestine remains under Ottoman rule. Muslims, Christians, and Jews all enjoy full and equal civil and religious liberties.

No Israel. No Korean War. No Vietnam. No Soviet-Afghan War. No Al Qaeda. No 9-11.
There are wars, but these are mostly colonial rebellions, not sweeping global conflicts.

America, having avoided both world wars and the Cold War (which never even happens), is in a much better position than in OTL. Her national debt is small, and she remains a creditor nation. The federal govt is much smaller than in OTL, and interferes far less in the lives of the people.

Men don't reach the Moon until 1989, though.

Last edited by combatmedic; 11-14-2010 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 11-13-2010, 07:57 PM   #27
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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No Korean War. No Vietnam.
LOL um no.

Chinese Communism is Independent (even hostile to) Soviet communism.

You Forget Japan's little empire building which was the key to Red China and the Korean War.
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Old 11-13-2010, 08:47 PM   #28
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LOL um no.

Chinese Communism is Independent (even hostile to) Soviet communism.

You Forget Japan's little empire building which was the key to Red China and the Korean War.
You forget the Soviet help to the Chinese Communists while Stalin was still alive.
You also forget America's WW2 role in East and Southeast Asia.
LOL yourself, buddy.


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Old 11-13-2010, 09:19 PM   #29
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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You forget the Soviet help to the Chinese Communists while Stalin was still alive.
You also forget America's WW2 role in East and Southeast Asia.
LOL yourself, buddy.


:0
No I did Not forget the US roll in East and South East Asia WW2, the Hauraki Gulf is littered with bunkers due to just how close Japan did get.

That didn;t change the condition for Red China Revolution after the war, and I don't see the change being made have any significant changes here.
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Old 11-13-2010, 11:08 PM   #30
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting WW1 stilling going in 1964

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No I did Not forget the US roll in East and South East Asia WW2, the Hauraki Gulf is littered with bunkers due to just how close Japan did get.

That didn;t change the condition for Red China Revolution after the war, and I don't see the change being made have any significant changes here.
You must be unaware of how the Soviets helped the Red Chinese. They actually helped Mao create a 'Chinese Soviet Republic' in the early 1930s, which served him as a base of operations until the so-called Long March. The crushing of Mao's Soviet Allies would not be helpful to him, to say the least.
The Red Chinese and the Russians remained freindly in the crucial early years, but later they fell out. Same thing with Albania after Stalin dies- Hoxha didn't trust the new leadership.


You must also be unaware of how and why the US became involved in Indochina. With no Soviet Union and no Maoist China, or Mao only as a big bandit leader, the 'domino theory' is out the window. No Cold War.
Why would Americans care which nationalists kicked a bunch of Frenchies out of Vietnam, so long as we could sell stuff to the winners?
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