What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Interesting. I'm guessing you're using that as a non-leveled perk, right? Or perhaps you're basing it on `independent income` if you want to scale it?

If you want to be able to produce things without spending time, use II. The perk just allows you to treat whatever activity you are interested in as a job.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Plane

Easy to do with Affliction. You just need to add increased duration: Permanent +300% which I forgot to do.

Guess that's what the -200% will help pay for

I mean sure, but much like creating Affliction(DR+1 (fire), Permanent, Cumulative) is a raw legal way to make someone fire-proof, it isn't really an indication of what the ability should probably cost. The point cost ends up rather arbitrary. (And probably the character getting the extra DR would be forced pay for it with character points if they aren't an NPC)

Anyway, I'm generally not terribly worried about sticking to RAW, I mostly want to figure out something fair and extendable. I tend to house-rule things left and right anyway; though mostly lowering the costs of abilities which end up overpriced for what they would actually do in the campaign. In the end I just want some thoughts on a reasonable way to build the advantage and try to get a fair price for it.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Anyway, I'm generally not terribly worried about sticking to RAW, I mostly want to figure out something fair and extendable. I tend to house-rule things left and right anyway; though mostly lowering the costs of abilities which end up overpriced for what they would actually do in the campaign. In the end I just want some thoughts on a reasonable way to build the advantage and try to get a fair price for it.

If you just want a ballpark figure, the minimum cost to learn the Manastone spell is 37 (without using the Charm perk).

Magery 2 [25]
10 spells from different colleges [10]
Enchant [1]
Manastone [1]

This gives the character IQ-1 to cast Manastone (and Enchant), which would technically require IQ 16 to attempt to cast it since attempts at enchanting something requires minimum 15 skill for both the spell and Enchant (M16).

Waiving the minimum skill requirement, making the roll at IQ baseline and rounding the total cost up to 40 sounds reasonable to me. The character can only use that advantage to make Manastones, they do so by spending an hour + 5 energy (as per Quick & Dirty Enchanting rules M17) and rolling against IQ. Failures still add quirks while Critical Failures destroy the enchantment and possibly also object (depending on the intention of the character/player).

There's also an argument for making it cost 30, by using Charm (Enchant) to drop the 10 spell prerequisites for Enchant, which would lower the total cost of the default Magic package to [28] and increasing both Enchant and Manastone to IQ costs [2] on top of that.

[kirbwarrior]

As a different perspective, I feel like Snatcher with Manastones Only -80% could work. The power level of the manastone would then modify the roll and how likely you are to get it.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Affliction(DR+1 (fire), Permanent, Cumulative) is a raw legal way to make someone fire-proof, it isn't really an indication of what the ability should probably cost. The point cost ends up rather arbitrary. (And probably the character getting the extra DR would be forced pay for it with character points if they aren't an NPC)

There is no character point cost for the built in limitation of "Healing (Afflictions Only) can remove your advantage with an unopposed roll".

In the case magic afflictions, Neutralize later got beefed (to the point where Static's value seems questionable) of not just removing powers but also their effects, so removing the effect would strip the permanent affliciton off of a powerstone much like remove enchantment would.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Plane

There is no character point cost for the built in limitation of "Healing (Afflictions Only) can remove your advantage with an unopposed roll".

In the case magic afflictions, Neutralize later got beefed (to the point where Static's value seems questionable) of not just removing powers but also their effects, so removing the effect would strip the permanent affliciton off of a powerstone much like remove enchantment would.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Neutralize always limited to a powerset. F.ex. Neutralize Psionics would neutralize pyrokinesis, and Neutralize Magic would neturalize a fireball, but neither would do anything to regular fire. I mean, 'Neutralize: Mundane' would be IOU-levels of weird, wouldn't do anything to non-mundane fire, hellfire, or super-science fire, etc.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Neutralize always limited to a powerset. F.ex. Neutralize Psionics would neutralize pyrokinesis, and Neutralize Magic would neturalize a fireball, but neither would do anything to regular fire. I mean, 'Neutralize: Mundane' would be IOU-levels of weird, wouldn't do anything to non-mundane fire, hellfire, or super-science fire, etc.

I don't think that's weird at all, but maybe I'm just strange.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Neutralize always limited to a powerset. F.ex. Neutralize Psionics would neutralize pyrokinesis, and Neutralize Magic would neturalize a fireball, but neither would do anything to regular fire. I mean, 'Neutralize: Mundane' would be IOU-levels of weird, wouldn't do anything to non-mundane fire, hellfire, or super-science fire, etc.

Powerset = Source?

B33 "Advantage Origins" requires any exotic or supernatural ability to specify "origins" which AFAIK = source unless I'm missing something.

The distinction might be that "source" refers to advantage origins only when they have a power modifier?

DR is exotic so it requires you specify 'origin' of DR as being something like biological, chi, cosmic, divine or (B34 list continues) high-tech, magic, psionic or spirit.

Advantages can only be neutralized if they are part of a power which includes the -5% countermeasures component as magic/psi/super do

Neutralize must be specific to one of those limited powers. To affect more than one you either buy multiple versions of Neutralize or buy the cosmic enhancement which lets 1 ability be used for any neutralizable power (still needs the -5%)

re "regular fire" since Innate Attack is exotic, Burning Attack too (like DR) must always specify an origin but I guess that's not a 'source' unless you add on a power modifier.

Which I guess means you could specify "magic" or "psi" as an advantage origin but not take the -10% limitations on them if you didn't want mana/neutralize or neutralize/tech to matter

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Anthony

My general rule for creating items of value (manastones seems to apply) is that you can spend 1 point to be able to treat any activity as a job of your wealth level, and you can accept payment in kind in place of wages, giving you a discount of 33-50%. If the crafting requires materials, only your value added is subject to this discount. Thus, a TL 3 average wealth job is $700/mo or about $33/day, so you can create $33 worth of manastones per day.

Originally Posted by Anthony

If you want to be able to produce things without spending time, use II. The perk just allows you to treat whatever activity you are interested in as a job.

If manastones (or any other tech) are a normal and purchasable part of your game, this is the way to purchase the ability to make them.


If you want the ability to make them faster than your current level of wealth, buy a new level of wealth. You effectively have that level of wealth through your ability, and everything else is convenience and flavor.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by ericthered

If manastones (or any other tech) are a normal and purchasable part of your game, this is the way to purchase the ability to make them.


If you want the ability to make them faster than your current level of wealth, buy a new level of wealth. You effectively have that level of wealth through your ability, and everything else is convenience and flavor.

The convenience of being able to 'purchase' important supplies when isolated from the wider economy is sometimes a quite significant factor, though. (See: why Doesn't Eat or Drink is significantly different from Independent Income.)