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Old 10-23-2017, 10:37 AM   #41
ericthered
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

I find that my players use lots and lots of swords. The primary reason is because its an efficient use of points.

Damage is only one component of a fight in gurps. You've also got to worry about hitting your opponent and not being hit. I tend to look at those numbers far more than raw damage numbers.

Axes, Polearms, maces, and more exotic weapons are generally unbalanced.

If you have a one-handed unbalanced weapon, that means you're pouring points into both axe and shield. you are a master of neither, spending eight points to do what a sword does with four. Sword parries get the full bonus of shield, so you can stick one or two points on it, carry the board around, and parry at +2 with your sword all the time.

Polearms and other two handed unbalanced weapons require a defense other than a shield. That either means huge amounts of armor, a large pile of HP, a dedicated "Kill them first" mentality, or a high dodge score (and dodge is the most expensive defense). and probably multiple of the above. This is quite doable, but it requires fully committing to the tactic, and its not for everybody or every campaign.

Contrast this with the warrior who just sinks most of his combat points into that one weapon. Combat makes better use of high skills than the rest of gurps, and if you can hit skill 20 you enter this sweet spot where you become very hard to hit, able to soak a lot of weird penalties, and unpredictable. These uber warriors usually use a sword, because it lets them just keep sinking points into it without sacrificing defense or offense.

Spears are balanced, and there are some polearms that you can pretend are spears up until you need huge amounts of damage (they are balanced when thrusting). Spears may or may not use a shield, and can parry freely. So they are a good alternative to swords from a point expenditure and "Tag" perspective.

The first problem with spears is the damage. They get nice bonuses, but those bonuses are to thrusting damage, not swinging damage. They generally do less damage than swords, but more injury if you have an unarmored foe. But when armor shows up, the spear starts to look less appealing. Its about even before unliving and homogeneous show up. If you're in a fight that features those (undead, constructs, and so forth), spears become garbage. Which is a real shame.

The second problem with spears is that they're big and bulky. When you're walking about and get into trouble you're more likely to have a sword handy than a spear. With pole-arms weight starts to become an issue.

And finally, yes, shortswords are purely suboptimal without house rules to make them awesome again. use Broadswords.

This is why my players and characters rely by and large on swords.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:40 AM   #42
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

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Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti View Post
You'll note I use the terms damage and injury strictly: damage is what you roll, injury is what you get after DR and the wounding modifier. For example, a ST 13 fighter with a Fine spear thrusts for 1d+3, or swings for 2d with a broadsword, and while the latter is more damage, against any DR less than 5, the spear deals more injury.
Only for the torso or face. Neck takes x2 from cutting, skull takes x4 from all sources of injury, and limbs/extremities take only x1 from impaling. Random hit locations means you can get a high-value target (even if you can't choose which one) at no penalty to the attack roll.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:43 AM   #43
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
And finally, yes, shortswords are purely suboptimal without house rules to make them awesome again.
At the least, be sure to use the weapon stats from Low-Tech or from DFRPG, which boost thrust damage for shortswords (and boost a few other too-weak weapons as well). It's a welcome improvement.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:58 AM   #44
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

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(Disclaimer: I'm no military history expert, most of what I know comes from reading Peter Connolly's books, which are great, accessible resources if you are interested in this sort of thing)

The gladius, while iconic, wasn't the main legionary weapon for most of Roman history. They moved away from relying on thrusting spears for a bit right around the end of the Republic and beginning of the Empire, but even during that time their tactics revolved around javelins and the shield wall.

With that said, the reason the Romans used the sword as much as they did is still relevant: it is effective in crowded, close quarter combat where longer weapons don't have room to swing.
From what I understand, the romans did in fact rely heavily on the gladius. They relied yet more heavily on their shields. The Legions marched into very close range behind their shields, and then stabbed away at ranges spears found incredibly awkward.

The problem with this historically effective tactic is that Gurps doesn't let you do it. The range on anything with the word "sword" in its never C. I usually house-rule in all short-swords having range C, or at least argue for the ability to buy it.
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Old 10-23-2017, 11:11 AM   #45
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

Yes there are a lot of weapons in the same price range as sword that do more damage, but they are battlefield weapons, that are inconvenient to carry when your goal is anything other the pitch battle.

The sword on the other hand once you're use to it wasn't that much of a bother the carry when you're going about your daily lives, but be armed if soundlessly necessary, and that was their main prevalence it also why they mad good secondary weapon on the battle field.
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Old 10-23-2017, 11:22 AM   #46
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

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Yes there are a lot of weapons in the same price range as sword that do more damage, but they are battlefield weapons, that are inconvenient to carry when your goal is anything other the pitch battle.

The sword on the other hand once you're use to it wasn't that much of a bother the carry when you're going about your daily lives, but be armed if soundlessly necessary, and that was their main prevalence it also why they mad good secondary weapon on the battle field.
It does have the disadvantage of sticking out. Unless you are someone everyone expects to carry a sword(in other words a gentleman) people will likely assume you are someone to keep an eye on. If you just have an agricultural implement that everyone carries and oh, by the way, can slice someone up like sausage, then that is different. A lot is psychological. Just like switchblades have a bad rep because of some movie or other even though real street gangs back then generally went in for fixed blades.
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:27 PM   #47
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
From what I understand, the romans did in fact rely heavily on the gladius. They relied yet more heavily on their shields. The Legions marched into very close range behind their shields, and then stabbed away at ranges spears found incredibly awkward.
"Roman Legion" covers a huge swath of time, several military reforms and shifts in TOE, and campaigns on three continents. In fact the time in which there were legions is longer than the time the gladius was in use, so at best you are talking about a very specific period of Roman history, but even that isn't accurate, as during the period that the gladius was in use so was the pilum.

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The problem with this historically effective tactic is that Gurps doesn't let you do it. The range on anything with the word "sword" in its never C. I usually house-rule in all short-swords having range C, or at least argue for the ability to buy it.
This is why the "Long Knife" was introduced in Martial Arts, it is usable with Shortsword skill and has Reach C. Many short swords are more like GURPS long knives.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 10-23-2017 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:49 PM   #48
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

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Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti View Post
Well, I think if you're trying to evaluate the overall effectiveness of two different options, whether weapons, advantages, or whatever, the best way to go about it is to compare average performance over a representative range of parameter values.
And I think it's about as useful as averaging the number of people with blue eyes or brown eyes and concluding that the average person has one eye of each. It's simplifying to the point where it's losing data and misrepresenting the situation. It's not the case that a fine spear is simply better than a sword. It's better in a certain range of situations, while the sword is better in another range of circumstances. If you've got a character with ST 14, you really don't care how your weapons would perform at ST 12 or ST 16. If you're ST 16, no amount of performance at ST 12 or 14 will change that a sword in your hands equals or outperforms a spear against the whole range of DR. Also, I think it's misleading to state that the sword "slightly" overperforms the spear in some cases without mentioning that the cases where the spear wins are similarly slightly overperforming the sword (It rarely does even 2 more injury than the sword, and that only at low strength and DR).

And that's still assuming you value the worth of a weapon entirely on this single metric, which I think is a gross oversimplification that disregards the strengths of both weapons. In fact, it would recommend against either of them in favor other weapons.

Quote:
If you think ST 10-16 is skewed too low
I don't, and I never suggested such a thing. When I was talking about "high ST", I was talking about the upper half of the range you gave.
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:53 PM   #49
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
If you're ST 16, no amount of performance at ST 12 or 14 will change that a sword in your hands equals or outperforms a spear against the whole range of DR.
Assuming you aren't using the blunt trauma optional rule. Realistically direct sword cuts are pretty useless against armor.

ETA: To the OP,
If you want to encourage swords, I wouldn't change the stats, just make sure that the kinds of situations that encouraged sword carries in real life are happening occasionally in your game. Have threats occur in civilian contexts where a polearm or spear is out of place, and have close quarters combat happen sometimes too (not just what GURPS calls Close Combat; fights at Reach 1 or more can still be in environments too restrictive for Reach 2+ weapons, and for shields; don't be afraid to point out that the ceiling is too low for the spear and the tables too close for the shield -there's vaguely implied but otherwise solid rules support for treating any situation with a crowded hex as Close Combat for a defender there).

Last edited by sir_pudding; 10-23-2017 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 10-23-2017, 01:08 PM   #50
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Default Re: Are swords worth it?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
ETA: To the OP,
If you want to encourage swords, I wouldn't change the stats, just make sure that the kinds of situations that encouraged sword carries in real life are happening occasionally in your game. Have threats occur in civilian contexts where a polearm or spear is out of place, and have close quarters combat happen sometimes too (not just what GURPS calls Close Combat; fights at Reach 1 or more can still be in environments too restrictive for Reach 2+ weapons, and for shields; don't be afraid to point out that the ceiling is too low for the spear and the tables too close for the shield -there's vaguely implied but otherwise solid rules support for treating any situation with a crowded hex as Close Combat for a defender there).
Good point! Underground Adventures makes some interesting points about the amount of space needed to use a weapon. It could also be that a tightly packed environment (doorways of buildings for instance) might even be badly suited to swings, so having a compact weapon you can thrust with would be important.

And also have people grab at spears, or chop at them. Any time you have a spear ready at Reach 2, someone can stand 3-yards away and attack your spear.
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