DF spellcasters

[corwyn]

This includes Wizards and their ilk (Summoners, etc.), Clerics, Druids; basically dedicated casters.

I'm working on my first DF game and I have a question. Back in 3e and to some extent, 4e as well, there were many comments that mages were weak at 100-125 pts, competitive at 150-200, and overpowered (or at least dominant) at 250+.

Does this still hold true in 4e in general?In DF?

[sir_pudding]

In my DF game the wizard, bard, and cleric definitely didn't seem overpowered. The Scout on the other hand...

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by corwyn

Does this still hold true in 4e in general?In DF?

Dungeon Fantasy has a lot of cinematic switches turned on, which makes other templates very competitive. It also makes templates mandatory, which gives niche protection for the other templates.

As for spellcasters specifically, DF limits them in a few different ways. First, it limits the spell list somewhat. Mages lost the Animal, Enchantment, Healing, Plant, and Weather college (though Weather isn't that limiting, since most Weather spells are also Water or Air spells). Other spell casters are even more limited in their spell lists - Druids to Animal, Plant, Weather, and a few Elemental spells. Clerics to Healing and some other spells from various colleges. Many of the more game-breaking spells have also been disallowed (e.g. Teleport, most Gate and Time spells are out, and Enchantment and Resurrection spells are the domain of NPCs you pay for their services).

DF also limits starting spellcasters in that each template only allocates ~30 points for spells. This means that spellcasters tend to start out with a limited spell list and expand from there.

[mlangsdorf]

My experience is that wizards can easily trivialize a lot of non-combat challenges. It's pretty cheap for a wizard to pick up Lockmaster, Shape Earth, and Air Walk, and then most locks and movement puzzles can just be magicked. You can still find things for thieves and martial artists to do, but it can feel a little contrived.

My personal preference is to switch to Threshold magery with very generous limits: I advocate a Threshold around 30-40 and a Recovery Rate of 40+. Since that limits the spell-casting per day, not per scene, wizards are much less likely to casually cast spells to solve problems. Sure, the wizard could cast Magelock, but it only takes a couple of minutes for the Thief to give it a try and every spell the wizard doesn't cast is a spell that isn't putting him one step closer to catastrophe.

I didn't find wizards very overpowered in combat, but I did make sure that in most combats the enemy had ranged attacks and at least the possibility of using attacks that could bypass Missile Shield. A dozen goblins firing meteoric iron arrows at the wizard is surprisingly not that much of a threat, but it's still enough for the wizard player to be cautious. If all your opponents are melee-focused humanoids, then a wizard with Air Walk and some missile spells that can just walk vertically out of reach and blast people will be boring but overpowered. But you should have more variety in your foes anyway.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

My experience is that wizards can easily trivialize a lot of non-combat challenges. It's pretty cheap for a wizard to pick up Lockmaster, Shape Earth, and Air Walk, and then most locks and movement puzzles can just be magicked. You can still find things for thieves and martial artists to do, but it can feel a little contrived.

Please, if magic were a thing, I would 100% invest in Meteoric Iron for my vaults. You think I want some kid with a decent innate Magery to just get my stuff because the first spell he learned was how to open a door? Nope, you've gotta put some effort into picking that lock!

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Please, if magic were a thing, I would 100% invest in Meteoric Iron for my vaults. You think I want some kid with a decent innate Magery to just get my stuff because the first spell he learned was how to open a door? Nope, you've gotta put some effort into picking that lock!

If every lock is a meteoric iron lock, then the strong guy in the group is going to pry the lock out of the vault and take it as loot. That's assuming the wizard doesn't just Shape Earth a gap in the vault and pop the lock out at the same time. It's a hard balance to strike.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

If every lock is a meteoric iron lock, then the strong guy in the group is going to pry the lock out of the vault and take it as loot. That's assuming the wizard doesn't just Shape Earth a gap in the vault and pop the lock out at the same time. It's a hard balance to strike.

It only takes a thin plating to mage-proof the vault. If somebody wants to brute-force the vault open? Well, that's on the group to decide on attempting to force the lock open or pick it. After all, no vault is 100% impervious.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In my DF game the wizard, bard, and cleric definitely didn't seem overpowered. The Scout on the other hand...

Stop including enemies that have eyes and vitals and you'll see his power-curve plummet.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Stop including enemies that have eyes and vitals and you'll see his power-curve plummet.

That is pretty contrived:

"Okay we go the the Goblin King's Fortress"
"After many days you arrive to discover that the goblins have all been eaten by oozes."
"Just like the dragon, the orcish horde, those mind-warper invaders, all of the bandits everywhere... "

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That is pretty contrived:

"Okay we go the the Goblin King's Fortress"
"After many days you arrive to discover that the goblins have all been eaten by oozes."
"Just like the dragon, the orcish horde, those mind-warper invaders, all of the bandits everywhere... "

Well, you could just give the bosses Missile Shield in some form. He can still have fun obliterating the horde.