GURPS Mars Attacks Supplements

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by maximara

Funny thing there. Several licensed properties, such as Conan and Castle Falkenstein are still available as Pdfs. So they make enough money to have a pdf of the 3e book around (ie keep the license which costs) but not enough to bring it in line with 4e? Uh, how does that work?

Without disputing many of your main points (I agree that, given that the Dungeon Fantasy kickstarter raised nearly twice what they considered the minimum viable sum, then, if it was indeed a failure, this seems likely to have been due to failures in planning rather than any lack of enthusiasm on the part of buyers- I sure wish my failures would make almost two hundred grand of income, plus the long tail), it occurs to me that they may have obtained licenses to sell the product "in perpetuity" rather than needing to continually pay to maintain the privilege. Many of these deals seem to have been made early on, when no one really understood how the economics of PDFs would work out. Anyway, it's not like the Castle Falkenstein or Bunnies and Burrows IPs have people knocking down their owners' doors to buy them- if I owned those properties, I would probably prefer to have those books sold indefinitely (assuming I get a portion of each sale) rather than try (and fail) to shake down SJGames for the privilege of selling them.

EDIT: Note that, by contrast, the GURPS:Vorkosigan Saga pdfs disappeared from the store, and this was explicitly due to the license to sell the PDF being of a finite duration. [Note also that, due to long delays in publishing the book, the PDFs were only available for a few months before said license expired- see also: bad planning.]

EDITEDIT:Looking now on Warehouse 23, I see that the PDF for Vorkosigan is now available. Assuming I am not misremembering the whole incident, this would seem to imply that SJGames [or, I suppose, whoever owns the rights to the Vorkosigan IP] found it worthwhile to renegotiate the contract. A point to maximara, I guess.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by maximara

Funny thing there. Several licensed properties, such as Conan and Castle Falkenstein are still available as Pdfs. So they make enough money to have a pdf of the 3e book around (ie keep the license which costs) but not enough to bring it in line with 4e? Uh, how does that work?

Just because SJG has a license to write and distribute one book based on IP in whatever format, doesn't mean the license covers writing and distributing additional books. New editions are new books, not "the same book but we updated some stuff". If their Conan or Castle Falkenstein licenses are for a specific set of GURPS books, then that's what they've got, no more and no less.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Just because SJG has a license to write and distribute one book based on IP in whatever format, doesn't mean the license covers writing and distributing additional books. New editions are new books, not "the same book but we updated some stuff". If their Conan or Castle Falkenstein licenses are for a specific set of GURPS books, then that's what they've got, no more and no less.

Generally, if you have any sense, you don't make "in perpetuity" license agreements like that. They should have a sunset clause like Horseclans, New Sun, Myth (the computer game), Witch World and several others seem to have had.

You might be able to argue that Castle Falkenstein wanted more exposure but that falls on its face regarding Conan.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by maximara

Generally, if you have any sense, you don't make "in perpetuity" license agreements like that. They should have a sunset clause like Horseclans, New Sun, Myth (the computer game), Witch World and several others seem to have had.

You might be able to argue that Castle Falkenstein wanted more exposure but that falls on its face regarding Conan.

I haven't said anything about in perpetuity. Length and renewal of license is unrelated to scope of license. I somehow doubt SJG could pony up the dosh for a license to make "an unlimited number of RPG products based on the Conan IP", even for a limited time frame and with no renewal clause. A license to make a fixed set of proposed products, with a renewal clause? Much more likely.

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

EDIT: Note that, by contrast, the GURPS:Vorkosigan Saga pdfs disappeared from the store, and this was explicitly due to the license to sell the PDF being of a finite duration. [Note also that, due to long delays in publishing the book, the PDFs were only available for a few months before said license expired- see also: bad planning.]

EDITEDIT:Looking now on Warehouse 23, I see that the PDF for Vorkosigan is now available. Assuming I am not misremembering the whole incident, this would seem to imply that SJGames [or, I suppose, whoever owns the rights to the Vorkosigan IP] found it worthwhile to renegotiate the contract. A point to maximara, I guess.

It looks like the actual paper hardcover is also for sale from W23.

On the "In perpetuity" questions, wasn't that the screwup by Paramount that among other things ultimately led to "GURPS Prime Directive"?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

It looks like the actual paper hardcover is also for sale from W23.

On the "In perpetuity" questions, wasn't that the screwup by Paramount that among other things ultimately led to "GURPS Prime Directive"?

The licensing for physical books is for print runs. Once you made them your not typically forced to destroy the unsold ones. So they can hang around the store till sold out.
In any case each liscence is its own thing and not conclusive as to the details on other properties.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by maximara

As shows like Star Trek (original version; 3rd seadon) and Doctor Who (Colin Baker-Sylvester Mccoy era) demonstrate things can be manipulated so that something that should do well can't.

And if you're going to believe that SJGames is conspiring to make GURPS sales look bad so they can kill the line, despite them not actually killing the line, there's not much point in conversing.

Originally Posted by maximara

That 'did not meet expectations' song and dance doesn't mean beans. If expectations were unrealistic based on the market and how the product was sold/marketed then of course sales wouldn't meet expectations.

They can still have an expectation of how well it should do based on how else they can spend their money. If investing $100,000 into a GURPS Box Set gets back less money over more time than investing $100,000 in a Munchkin set, then why bother investing in the poorer performing GURPS Box Set?

Originally Posted by maximara

Given the kickstarter for Dungeon Fantasy made S176,450 of its target of $100,000 and Dungeon Fantasy clocks in at 28 "books" even though the first four are "out of print" (more on that in a moment) that doesn't appear to hold true.

And it cost more and took longer to produce than they expected and the physical copies have sold slower on the tail than they needed for it to be financially viable to do another box set or to reprint. Basically, most of the people who wanted it jumped on the kickstarter, which reduced its sales in the retail chain.

Originally Posted by maximara

Also how do you know the sales aren't there?

We don't. But we know that the people at SJGames know what the sales are. And we know that the people at SJGames have said that the sales didn't meet expectations. And unless you think that the folks at SJGames are trying to sabotage GURPS there's no reason to doubt their sincerity. And if you think they are trying to sabotage GURPS there's reason to doubt yours.

Originally Posted by maximara

Funny thing there. Several licensed properties, such as Conan and Castle Falkenstein are still available as Pdfs. So they make enough money to have a pdf of the 3e book around (ie keep the license which costs) but not enough to bring it in line with 4e? Uh, how does that work?

There's a *VAST* gulf between negotiating a contract to keep a few PDFs available for online sales and negotiating a contract to write new books which will directly compete with the new RPG books that the current License Holder is producing.

[PL Madeira]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

Back on topic, I think the only thing Mars Attacks is missing is a ready-to-play adventure that's generic enough to put into various campaigns, but still complicated enough to make the players think. Most of the vagueness in the book is due to the fact that the GM can change vast parts of the setting to fit their own vision and in-depth WWII-style write-ups for every group and technology would ruin the fun and changeability of the material.

Thinking about this again. It is possible to such adventure to pop out on a Pyramid eventually? I know the book is two years old now, but it would be nice.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by maximara

The cards are online and the set comes off as a more detailed satire of the 1953 version of War of the Worlds with B to Z grade version of elements from movies such as Incredible Shrinking Man and Them thrown in.

You can see where the movie got a lot of its ideas and scenes in the cards set (and what didn't get included; like the giant insects didn't make the cut).

So we have a GURPS book based on a 50 year old card set which is likely only remembered thanks to a 20 year movie. As I said updating Atomic Horror and Mars for 4e would have been time (and money) better spent.

This, essentially, was something discussed quite a bit around Mars Attacks' release. Many of us (myself included) had no idea why anyone would consider it a worthwhile license.

Supposedly, the Mars Attacks property actually does have popularity somewhere. Whether that makes sense to us or not I don't think there's much point in re-examining the question.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by PL Madeira

Thinking about this again. It is possible to such adventure to pop out on a Pyramid eventually? I know the book is two years old now, but it would be nice.

That seems like a thing that would likely not be possible with a licensed property...though I could be wrong about that.

I'd think such a thing would have a chance in appropriately-themed Pyramid issues if (A) there aren't legal barriers and (B) someone wrote it.