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Old 09-27-2017, 04:49 PM   #51
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
It's doubtful that every sort of armor or even most sorts of armor lumped into a single GURPS tech level ever coexisted in the same time and place, so the comparison was unlikely to have been made. Yet mail did replace segmented plate, so clearly its superiority was eventually recognized . . .
If we are talking about Roman segmented plate then the earliest fragment was found at Dangstetten and dates to 9 BC. Mail was developed in the 4th century BC and adopted by the Romans around a century later. So Roman use of mail predates segmentata by around two centuries. Mail and segmentata were both used for around three centuries and then segmentata was phased out. There are no depictions of segmentata being worn by anyone other than low ranking soldiers. IMO it was munitions armour designed for those who couldn't afford anything better. Those with the means preferred mail, or scale, or bronze musculata.

This might help.
http://myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html
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Last edited by DanHoward; 09-27-2017 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:55 PM   #52
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

IMO all types of armour provided very similar protection. Soldiers never chose a type of armour based on which weapons it could stop because all options were similarly protective. Other criteria were deciding factors: coverage, comfort, cost, weight, ease of maintenance, etc. The only time this changes is when firearms come onto the scene and nothing other than very thick plate stood a chance of providing protection. The heaviest extant breastplates are 8-9 mm thick on the chest. This is when other types of armour stop being worn all together.
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Old 09-27-2017, 06:54 PM   #53
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

I fully get why mail would be the preferred armor for that flexibility allowing complete coverage, ease of repair in field, and breathability which is something few gamers seem to take seriously.
But if segmented plate is supposed to be useless, then for gaming purposes reality must be taken out back and shot or at least some leeway must be given to make it something other than a point of contention for characters in setting let alone players.
I think my idea of making mail impossible to make cheap, but segmented plate can be allowing it to work for outfitting an army on the cheap. That assumes that such major demand for loads of iron doesn't cause an increase in prices negating some or even all of the point.

But that wouldn't deal with the fact that brigandine was more advanced but doesn't have an option in this article that I can see.
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:17 PM   #54
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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But if segmented plate is supposed to be useless, then for gaming purposes reality must be taken out back and shot...
It's purpose is when you need armor now and don't have time to wait on the smith to pull a few thousand rings and make mail.
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:44 PM   #55
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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In an AtE setting there will be metric tons of usable steel sheet for plate armor. Cut with a hammer and chisel, shape it, then add straps and buckles, etc. Adding fluting, for instance, simply requires a length of metal rod which you form into a shape you want and then place under the armor piece. You then hammer the plate to shape it to fit the rod beneath. You can harden and temper it if you want, but frankly even real medieval armor was seldom of such uniform quality.
Better still, this sheet steel (or Aluminium, for that matter) will be less prone to cracking and splitting at the edges of the piece than authentic pieces, and so it's not so important that you smooth and roll the edges. This makes it an easier and faster job than back in the day.
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:42 PM   #56
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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It's purpose is when you need armor now and don't have time to wait on the smith to pull a few thousand rings and make mail.
Which in Gurps/game terms means it can be made more cheaply. For GMs and players that aren't into super realistic details of outfitting large groups of soldiers, at least. That would be even more setting and time dependent.
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:56 PM   #57
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Better still, this sheet steel (or Aluminium, for that matter) will be less prone to cracking and splitting at the edges of the piece than authentic pieces, and so it's not so important that you smooth and roll the edges. This makes it an easier and faster job than back in the day.
Yes, that's a good point. And yet, rolling the edges is easier still than many suggest. It's nothing more than putting a bit of the edge in a vice and bending the sheet down, then hammering that edge over a mandrel (an iron rod). Too easy.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:02 PM   #58
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
IMO all types of armour provided very similar protection.
Well that would have simplified Low-Tech armor, wouldn't it?

Armor: DR 4.

End of notes.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:30 PM   #59
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

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Which in Gurps/game terms means it can be made more cheaply.
Not necessarily.

There's a saying in contract work; "There are three things; fast, cheap, and good. You can pick two."

Mail seems to be Good and Cheap, where segmentata is only fast (it's the one 'that proves the rule').

So if you need to outfit 100 men in the next month, segmentata is likely the way to go, even if it's more expensive and crappier.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:42 PM   #60
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Default Re: Segmented Plate - Pyramid Low Tech II what am I missing?

I think you totally missed the point of what Kromm was saying - which seems to me to have been that sometimes games shooting for realism have poor choices. Not everything has to be optimal. Just because your players see that mail is better than segmented plate isn't relevant. The option is there for players who need it.
Clearly using spells as advantages would be better for a lot of characters, but that doesn't mean that the magic system needs to be 'taken out back and shot'.
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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I fully get why mail would be the preferred armor for that flexibility allowing complete coverage, ease of repair in field, and breathability which is something few gamers seem to take seriously.
But if segmented plate is supposed to be useless, then for gaming purposes reality must be taken out back and shot or at least some leeway must be given to make it something other than a point of contention for characters in setting let alone players.
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