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Old 10-13-2018, 03:08 PM   #51
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Killing PCs

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
I don’t feel that a GM should plan a story, but instead a situation. A GM saying, “Here’s what happens to your character,” when not as a reaction to a player action, ceases to make the game a game but instead a story, and almost always a bad one.
The way you depict it, yes, that's a bad way of doing it. But, that's not how many of us do it.

But the GM should always have a story they're telling as well. So should each of the players. And the group comes together to tell the story. And we work together to make the story interesting.

In Infinite Weirdos Part Deux, the story I'm telling, as the GM, is the coming of the next Dark Age. Whether this is due to the return of an ancient, dead, evil, or the coming of the Angel of Death, is up to the party.

Is there a way that the party can prevent both outcomes? Probably not. I don't have one. But, that's not to say that the party doesn't outwit and surprise me by coming up with an awesome plan that I couldn't imagine.

#6 of John Wick's 10 commandments is:
"change, adapt, modify, edit, remove and erase any pre-conceived plans if your players come up with a better explanation for “what is happening.”"

If they outsmart me and come up with a solution that allows them to defeat the ancient dead and prevent the Angel of Death . . . then power to them. I can't figure out how they would do this, but it's a game. And I'm willing to let them try. And, importantly, I won't stop them.

But, Saeko's player knows he is going to want to change characters (because she was just an easy character he understood to learn how to play) and is a big fan of her sacrificing herself to save her new friends.

That's a good story and one that should be told. So, when he's ready, we'll discuss how he wants her to go out, and set it up. He'll know, so he'll know what to do, and these things will go. The party will react, and the game will continue.

I won't be telling him what happens to his character, he'll be doing those things with her. We're collaborating to tell the final part of her story. He wants her to end a certain way, and I'll help him pull that off.

The other players and GM are your audience. Entertain them. They'll help. They want to have fun. That's the point.
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:22 PM   #52
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Killing PCs

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Did you respond to the right quote here? What you are writing here seems like a response to my earlier post about authors writing inconsistent stories (which you already responded to once before).
Yes, I was simply providing additional context.

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Giving every enemy full stats might be exessive, but that is because writing good stats take time. It is not because, having no stats is somehow better.
I never said it was better. I just said it wasn't necessary. Having stats isn't better than not having them, nor is it any worse. It's a different way of doing things.

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Being an incoporeal spirit is part of the stats! Also, even if the PCs can't hurt it, many other part of its stats could still be important. Is it charismatic? Does it have any magical attacks? Is it good at chess? etc.
Again, good notes solves this problem. If it's good at chess, you can put that in your notes. If you feel that it needs a skill level, then go for it. Nothing is stopping you from putting anything you feel is relevant in the notes. They're notes.

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There are plenty of things those notes don't tell you about Asmodeus. Whether lacking those things is a significant detriment does of course depend on the particulars of your game.
No, those are only a detriment if someone pulls my notes and tries to run Asmodeus the same way I do. And even then, having full stats won't help.

But, just having the notes that he's a King of Hell should tell you everything you would need to know. Any relevant skills or advantages he might need, he would have at a high level. The details are irrelevant for him.

Giving him a Law Skill and requiring him to roll against it means he could fail or critically fail the roll, and that's not something a plot device can do. The note that he "always wins cases" is much more relevant than any level of Law (whatever) skill. And it tells you that no matter the skill of the opposing lawyer, they will lose.

I'm not telling you not to fully stat our your NPCs and Plot Devices, just that it isn't necessary. Telling me that it is a necessity is incorrect. It may be a necessity for you. But that's just you.
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:33 PM   #53
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I never said it was better. I just said it wasn't necessary. Having stats isn't better than not having them, nor is it any worse. It's a different way of doing things.
Then what did you mean with the "If you give something stats the PCs will try to kill it." quote? Was that not a way of trying to say that not having stats is better?

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Again, good notes solves this problem. If it's good at chess, you can put that in your notes. If you feel that it needs a skill level, then go for it. Nothing is stopping you from putting anything you feel is relevant in the notes. They're notes.
Stats in the notes is still stats.

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Giving him a Law Skill and requiring him to roll against it means he could fail or critically fail the roll, and that's not something a plot device can do. The note that he "always wins cases" is much more relevant than any level of Law (whatever) skill. And it tells you that no matter the skill of the opposing lawyer, they will lose.

I'm not telling you not to fully stat our your NPCs and Plot Devices, just that it isn't necessary. Telling me that it is a necessity is incorrect. It may be a necessity for you. But that's just you.
If you just never want him to fail a Law roll, then just give him a high enough skill level and an appropriate level of Super Luck (limited to use for the Law skill if that is all he is infallible at).

No, I haven't said that it is necessary. Just that it is better to have good stats than not having any stats.
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:36 PM   #54
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Default Re: Killing PCs

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
I don’t feel that a GM should plan a story, but instead a situation. A GM saying, “Here’s what happens to your character,” when not as a reaction to a player action, ceases to make the game a game but instead a story, and almost always a bad one.
I like the phrase "plan a situation." It's useful, I think, especially for new GMs who haven't quite grokked the difference between novels, screenplays, and RPG scenarios. But I've definitely played in many games where PCs died dramatically in ways that were planned between a player and the GM. I cannot think of a single one that did not make an excellent story.

I have only done this a few times on the GM side of things, but it was always a lot of fun to work with the player to figure out the appropriate conflict for their demise. In the most recent one that I can recall (~15 years ago?), we left the details of the actual death to the game, but the player and I knew it was going to happen in a particular encounter. Then it was up to the dice and some improv. The stakes were high. The PC took suitable risks and made sure to burn any obvious get-out-of-jail-free cards (like Luck, FP for spells, etc.) The adversaries amped things up. The rest of the players didn't know that anything was planned, so they were simply having a blast trying to end up not dead. The session stood out for my old group as one of the Best Ever.
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:58 PM   #55
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Default Re: Killing PCs

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The way you depict it, yes, that's a bad way of doing it. But, that's not how many of us do it.

But the GM should always have a story they're telling as well. So should each of the players. And the group comes together to tell the story.
I have nothing against collaborative storytelling, but RPGs are poor instruments for doing that, because dice have no sense of story. You're better off with something diceless or mostly systemless if your actual goal is a story, rather than a game.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:09 AM   #56
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Default Re: Killing PCs

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
If you just never want him to fail a Law roll, then just give him a high enough skill level and an appropriate level of Super Luck (limited to use for the Law skill if that is all he is infallible at).

No, I haven't said that it is necessary. Just that it is better to have good stats than not having any stats.
I really don't see how having stats is "better". If you want your NPC to be infallible you have to hunt down the correct advantages to make them not having to roll and hunt down all the advantages that can counter that and put those on the PC ban list. Extra work when you could just have written "infallible at x" and been done with it.

Having stats for everything may make some people feel better about their worldbuilding (I can certainly see the appeal of everything being strictly and consistently defined in detail, but time it limited), but that doesn't make it unqualifiedly better for everyone.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:19 AM   #57
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I really don't see how having stats is "better". If you want your NPC to be infallible you have to hunt down the correct advantages to make them not having to roll and hunt down all the advantages that can counter that and put those on the PC ban list. Extra work when you could just have written "infallible at x" and been done with it.

Having stats for everything may make some people feel better about their worldbuilding (I can certainly see the appeal of everything being strictly and consistently defined in detail, but time it limited), but that doesn't make it unqualifiedly better for everyone.
A custom advantage which says "always succeed and always has an infinite margin of success, for Law rolls" is also stats.

Better in general, not necessarily for everyone in every situation. It is certainly possible to think of edge cases where stats doesn't add any value, but in those situations you could just ignore them.

Last edited by Andreas; 10-14-2018 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:27 AM   #58
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Default Re: Killing PCs

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It is certainly possible to think of edge cases where stats doesn't add any value, but in those situations you could just ignore them.
I don't think the majority of Mark Starr's campaign* counts as an edge case.




* Nor mine. I run pretty much the same way Mark does.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:34 AM   #59
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Default Re: Killing PCs

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A custom advantage which says "never fails Law regular contests, Law quick contests and Law rolls" is also stats.
That blurs the line of notes and stats IMO. :)

---

Another problem that I see with detailed stats for big guys (like a Duke of Hell) is that it's easy, as a lowly human, to forget something. And if you add stats on the fly anyway, what was the point of making detailed stats to begin with?

For reference I would use a mix of stats and notes for most things, with mostly stats for lower level big things (e.g. Marvel's Thor) going up to just notes for really big things (e.g. the Abrahamic God).
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:42 AM   #60
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Default Re: Killing PCs

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I don't think the majority of Mark Starr's campaign* counts as an edge case.




* Nor mine. I run pretty much the same way Mark does.
Nor do I. From the descriptions I have gotten this far, there does seem to be some value to be had from stats. This is of course just speculation though since Mark hasn't told me enough about that campaign.
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