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Old 01-12-2018, 03:47 PM   #1
Stripe
 
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Default KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

Rules as written and canonically speaking, diffuse creatures DO suffer knockback (p. B378) as usual, right? I realize that diffuse creatures ignore all knockdown (p. B420), but there's no modification to knockback due to that trait, right?

What about knockback against ST 0 creatures as Diffuse ones often are? Let's say a Dungeon Fantasy Knight swinging a mace rolls 20 points of basic crushing damage on the dice. How far would a DR 0, ST 0 creature be knocked back? If there's a difference, how far back would a DR 0, ST 0 diffuse monster be knocked back?

Seeking page references and rules quotes. Thanks!
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:05 PM   #2
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

Bonus question: a diffuse creature with DR0 has a x2 vulnerability (p. B161) to fire. A player uses the Flame Jet spell and rolls 10 burning damage. How much injury does the creature take?

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Old 01-12-2018, 04:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

That same section says use HP instead for ST 0 creatures.
However I would say the damage for KNB is modified as normal, its not DR which is what section is addressing.
So crushing attacks wont have much effect but area crushing such as a wind or water blast would.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

Is this how this would work?

First, the 20 points of damage is reduced to 2 (Basic, p. 380, Damage to ...Diffuse Targets).
Then, is this a situation where you would invoke the text from p. 378, "...if the subject has no ST at all or is not resisting, use HP instead"? I think I would, and the most likely outcome, assuming that the Diffuse Creature has at least 4 HP is that the attack would do no knockback.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Bonus question: a diffuse creature with DR0 has a x2 vulnerability (p. B161) to fire. A player uses the Flame Jet spell and rolls 10 burning damage. How much injury does the creature take?

Thanks!
4, right? Damage from all sources other than Imp or Pi are reduced to 2. A Jet isn't area effect, cone, or explosion.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
That same section says use HP instead for ST 0 creatures.
Gah! You're right: "If the target has no ST score at all (like a wall), or is not resisting, use its HP instead." All three of us missed that last night.

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Old 01-12-2018, 07:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

However, the previous sentence says: "If the target has ST 3 or less, knockback is one yard per point of basic damage!"

I'm not certain if ST 0 falls under "no ST score" or "3 or less."

I'm rather leaning toward "3 or less" right now (because ST 0 is a score and it is less than 3), but have trouble imagining wispy smoke monsters like a Toxifier being batted 20 or 30 yards away by a club or maceóbut I'm only interested in black-and-white, ink-on-page rules.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
However, the previous sentence says: "If the target has ST 3 or less, knockback is one yard per point of basic damage!"

I'm not certain if ST 0 falls under "no ST score" or "3 or less."

I'm rather leaning toward "3 or less" right now (because ST 0 is a score and it is less than 3), but have trouble imagining wispy smoke monsters like a Toxifier being batted 20 or 30 yards away by a club or maceóbut I'm only interested in black-and-white, ink-on-page rules.
I think you have once again reached the limit of literal textualism. Literally you are correct, either rule could apply. It's also clear that the rules say "basic damage" even though you would reasonbly expect injury tolerance to have an effect in this case.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:25 AM   #9
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It's also clear that the rules say "basic damage" even though you would reasonbly expect injury tolerance to have an effect in this case.
IT is after DR. You might not deal any injury at all, and still give knockback. I think thats why its base damage.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:35 AM   #10
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Default Re: KnockBACK against ST 0 Diffuse Creatures

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IT is after DR. You might not deal any injury at all, and still give knockback. I think thats why its base damage.
Sure, but in this particular case it would make sense to apply Diffuse to the damage when considering knockback, (because you don't expect a cloud of smoke to get especially knocked around by swinging a mace through it) but the letter of the rules, as the OP requests, says otherwise.
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