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Old 01-12-2018, 12:21 PM   #1
Gnome
 
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Default [Basic/Martial Arts] Feint applies to all attacks or just one?

My group ran into this last weekend, and the books seem to say different things. Suppose I have Extra Attack 2. I use my first attack to Feint against you. Does my Feint penalize your defense for both of my next two attacks, or just one of them?

Is the answer any different for a Beat?

EDIT:
relevant quotes:

"The defense penalty applies only to your next attack." (Basic 365)

"A feint that precedes attacks on the same subject during the same maneuver affects the victim’s defenses against those attacks; thus, All-Out Attack (Feint) is no different from using All-Out Attack (Double) to feint and attack the same target." (MA 127)

"The penalty lasts until the end of the next turn of the fighter who made the Beat." (MA 101)

Last edited by Gnome; 01-12-2018 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:39 PM   #2
Anthony
 
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Default Re: [Basic/Martial Arts] Feint applies to all attacks or just one?

A feint can modify more than one attack -- B364: "A Feint is good for one second! But if you Feint and then make an All-Out Attack (Double), the feint applies to both attacks". Also, AoA (feint) is an exception to the normal 1 second duration. I read MA 127 as being a special case equivalent to AoA (feint) -- if you feint as part of a multi-attack maneuver, the feint applies to the remainder of the maneuver instead of to your next turn.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Basic/Martial Arts] Feint applies to all attacks or just one?

Thank you very much for that clear answer, Anthony. Indeed, I had a problem with feints in GURPS. Not an understanding problem. But a problem of reality (what I learn in my dojo) vs GURPS rules: the feints I learn in karate as well as in kobudo don't let to the foe the least opportunity to attack between the feint and the true attack. Thanks to your post, I know understand that they actually do correspond to All out Attack (double: feint+attack) rather than more ordinary GURPS feints (feint during one turn and attack during the following one).
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Basic/Martial Arts] Feint applies to all attacks or just one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
Thank you very much for that clear answer, Anthony. Indeed, I had a problem with feints in GURPS. Not an understanding problem. But a problem of reality (what I learn in my dojo) vs GURPS rules: the feints I learn in karate as well as in kobudo don't let to the foe the least opportunity to attack between the feint and the true attack. Thanks to your post, I know understand that they actually do correspond to All out Attack (double: feint+attack) rather than more ordinary GURPS feints (feint during one turn and attack during the following one).
Or to Deceptive Attack or Set-Up Attack. I think Feint is a hard thing to relate to anything in real life, especially since Deceptive Attack was introduced.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Basic/Martial Arts] Feint applies to all attacks or just one?

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
But a problem of reality (what I learn in my dojo) vs GURPS rules: the feints I learn in karate as well as in kobudo don't let to the foe the least opportunity to attack between the feint and the true attack.
That's probably a deceptive attack rather than a feint. For an actual delayed feint, the only thing I've seen that's particularly equivalent to a GURPS feint (it happens as a separate action, rather than something like a change of line during a single attack) is various abortive attacks used to attempt to provoke an unwise response.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:56 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Basic/Martial Arts] Feint applies to all attacks or just one?

We learn a lot of what GURPS names Deceptive Attacks, indeed. And, untill now, I also used the Deceptive Attack rules to handle my karate and kobudo feints ... But what I am talking about is still true feints: there are two different attacks, a fake one, immediately followed by a true one. The only difference with Basic Set GURPS feint is that they are very quick and that the adversary doesn't have time to attack between the two - if he tries to defend against the fake attack.

So, the best way to handle that very specific kind of techniques is really AoA (Feint+Attack). By the way, doing them takes time and so, when I do them, I don't really have time to defend myself. Thus, it really corresponds to an AoA.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:29 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Basic/Martial Arts] Feint applies to all attacks or just one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
We learn a lot of what GURPS names Deceptive Attacks, indeed. And, untill now, I also used the Deceptive Attack rules to handle my karate and kobudo feints ... But what I am talking about is still true feints: there are two different attacks, a fake one, immediately followed by a true one. The only difference with Basic Set GURPS feint is that they are very quick and that the adversary doesn't have time to attack between the two - if he tries to defend against the fake attack.

So, the best way to handle that very specific kind of techniques is really AoA (Feint+Attack). By the way, doing them takes time and so, when I do them, I don't really have time to defend myself. Thus, it really corresponds to an AoA.
A more by rote version, would be a combination Feint and Attack,

you lose out in predictability but keep you defence awareness.


There was a recent thread discussing the question of feint and it's timing in GURPS combat
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Basic/Martial Arts] Feint applies to all attacks or just one?

Yes. What is fun with this topic - as with almost everything in GURPS - is that there are several manners of handling the situation. And all of them are rules as written. GURPS is a game which lets the GM use the rules he prefers ...

Thank you very much for the link. I glanced at it but will read it more carefully as soon as possible.
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