09-24-2019, 04:45 AM | #31 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
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Actually there's a nice trick you can do with Wait and an opponent using a 0U weapon if the 0U weapon user is on the offensive. Barry (Baz to his mates) = Speed 5 broadsword Charles (Chaz to his mates) = Speed 4 Axe Starting position a hex between them Baz Turn 1 = "I take a wait, when Chaz steps into 1 hex range I attack with my broadsword" Chaz Turn 1 = "I step in one hex and attack with my axe" Baz's Wait triggers when Chaz steps in, Baz attacks with his broadsword. Now Chaz can defend without penalty and then make his attack.....but since his axe is 0U he can't parry and attack within the same turn! So he's limited to dodge or block (better hope he's got a shield). If he tries and boost his dodge with a retreat he's then out of range for his attack, and basically back to where he started! Now obviously there are a few assumptions here, mainly the axe wielder has to come on, and the sword wielder has to be free to sit back and wait. But it's a nice way to use wait to leverage the difference between balanced and unbalanced weapons. Now Chaz has other options, he can opt to do a "Defensive attack" from Martial Arts this allows him to ignore the 0U on his axe, but that reduces his damage. It has the added advantage that if Baz then attacks again after Chaz's attack goes off Baz can still parry if he needs to, albeit with -3 pen. If Chaz's has got skill advantage (or other bonuses) he might opt to do a "Stop Hit" (also MA), this potentially allows him to parry Baz's triggered attack and attack back without worrying about 0U for that attack. But that 0U will still be a factor if Baz follows up immediately with his next turn still within Chaz's 1st turn defence window.
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-24-2019 at 04:50 AM. |
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09-24-2019, 04:48 AM | #32 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
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Sure, and if I wasn't running DF I'd probably see more Waits. But I had this problem in my Fallout/AtE games as well, where I only ever saw Waits during ambushes and combat lulls (ranged combat lends itself to "I Wait to see him pop out of cover and shot him"). And even there, Waits were considered sub-optimal, only better than Do Nothing. Last edited by evileeyore; 09-24-2019 at 07:36 PM. |
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09-24-2019, 06:46 AM | #33 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
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In all? No GM (my self included) can always be right all of the time while acting as a Referee at the table. GM's would always be advised to try and take into account things during gaming and if they make a mistake, simply accept it, learn from it, and move on. For all I know, everything I've pointed out above was taken into consideration. Assuming that this was in a cavern - I'd have used the following modifiers for hearing rolls (just off the cuff without having the rules in front of me). Any perception rolls for hearing would have been penalized by the bear's noise. It is unlikely however, the bear would have been a non-stop noise maker. I'd likely (as a GM convention of my own, not as part of the rules) would have rolled 1d6-2 and used that as a penalty for the perception roll for hearing other things. Between the growls, roars, etc, this would have been a fluid situation, not a constant. If the attack were in a cavern, I'd have definitely added a -2 penalty for the echoes. Then I'd take into account that the mage casting that spell is at -1 per hex, spending 3 seconds to cast that spell. Unless the fighter player character is totally unware of the mage, I'd have said to the player "Make a perception roll please, then make an IQ roll." The first, to hear the sound, the second, to understand the sound. If the first succeeds despite say, a -1 penalty due to that random 1d6-2 roll (the bear is growling would be my description), I'd say "you hear a human voice murmering in the background. If the IQ roll is made, I'd further describe it as "You hear forceful murmering, as if a spell incantation were in motion." That is if the mage were out of sight of the player character. If the mage is IN sight of the fighter, when I'd have described "the mage begins chanting accompanied by hand gestures". Now the player of that character is between a rock and a hard place. Does he deal with the potentially hostile mage potentially casting a hostile spell on him, or does he deal with the oncoming bear? Me? I'd have started moving at FULL speed away from the BOTH of them. If I had naturalist, I might have even hatched a plan to try to get the bear to pass BY the mage. Remember the old joke - "I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have to outrun YOU". But the reason being, assuming that conditions permitted it, I would want as MUCH space between myself and the mage to maximize my survival chances that by being further away, the spell casting for the mage becomes all the more difficult. In the end? This is all "Second guessing" - which means that I may or may not be correct about the underlying situation. This was brought up in with the idea of "after action report" learning about what went down vs what probably could have been done better (in case you missed something here or there). See my next post answering the specifics of your question and stuns and whether or not you chose correctly, to rule as you did. Quick answer, yes, you did. See next post as to why... |
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09-24-2019, 07:12 AM | #34 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
Stuns per the rules as written, take effect Immediately. Per the rules as written, they interrupt the actions of the target of the stun, and can only be shaken off after the target chooses to take a "Do Nothing" AFTER the stun was inflicted.
Curiously, the wording of WAIT specifies that it is a form of "Do nothing". See page 366: Do nothing unless a particular event you specified in advance occurs before your next turn It goes on to say this: If that happens, you may transform your Wait into an Attack, Feint, All-Out Attack (you must specify the option before acting), or Ready maneuver. Note that it doesn't say a word about being able to transform a wait into a do nothing maneuver. And there is a reason for this. How can you attempt to un-stun from an event that hasn't happened yet? Yes, the inter-weaving of activities between multiple characters in game play can be confusing (and leads to some really unsavory events that, this GM has made an attempt to rectify to where I no longer use the rules as written in that regard!). So, to clarify with an example... If my fighter takes the wait option, specifying as the trigger "as soon as HE comes within blade reach" is specific enough to trigger the moment I can attack your character upon coming within reach. This further means that I'm not waiting necessarily for your fighter character to come within one hex, it simply means that I'm waiting until you come close enough to where I CAN attack. The "Attack" maneuver specifies that I can step and attack, or Attack then step. If you're moving close into me, I'd chose the latter when you got adjacent, then step back as part of my "Step". It isn't a retreating dodge or anything like that, it is a specific attempt to attack while moving slightly backwards. If my attack STUNS you at that point in time, the rule that stuns take place immediately results in your character's inability to do ANYTHING further until he can take a "Do nothing" maneuver in response to the stun AFTER it has occurred. So, the wait the player took with his character - got interrupted, forcing him to abort his planned action (no different than my waiting forcing the incoming fighter's planned attack when I inflicted the physical stun on him with my attack into his attack - ie, waiting attack). |
09-24-2019, 10:39 AM | #35 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
Do we have any idea how much Altered Time Rate (extra maneuver may only be a Do Nothing) might cost?
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That or use extra effort to get AOA (Long) benefits (+1 to reach) Quote:
I think I recall something about unbalanced/swing weapons also getting penalties in that CW contest. You mean like if he had Extra Attack? |
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09-24-2019, 12:14 PM | #36 |
Forum Pervert
(If you have to ask . . .) Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere high up.
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
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09-24-2019, 12:16 PM | #37 |
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
RaW the fighter's following turn would need to resolve the Stun Effect of the spell. However, RaW I believe the fighter's held action would be executed as normal during the current turn as it is not part of their "Next Turn" but rather part of a turn that was resolve earlier than the witch's action.
For flow of combat I'd resolve the Stun on the Fighter's held action. It preserves the intent of the spell effect and still allows the witch to interfere with the fighter's plans. |
09-24-2019, 12:36 PM | #38 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
They aren't changing their maneuver doing that; they are simply using step and attack and then not actually attacking because they have no ready weapons.
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09-24-2019, 05:57 PM | #39 | |
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
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Although I guess there would be the side benefit of the penalty for cumulative active defenses resetting since it's a new maneuver, which stun immunity wouldn't give... |
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09-25-2019, 03:01 AM | #40 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver
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True again, but of course Baz can also leverage EE to pull stuff off. Quote:
It's not cascading waits, it comes off Baz's defence / wait triggered attack yes, but in this case also Because Baz will be able to make another attack within Chaz's initial window of defence meaning if Chaz goes for a 2nd parry he'll be at -3. Again a dodge retreat (or sidestep) might be a good option. it's as follows: Baz Turn 1 "I wait, when Chaz steps into range I attack" Chaz Turn 1 "I step in and attack" Chaz Turn 1 starts his defence window starts, Chaz steps ...Baz's turn 1 wait triggers, he attacks, Chaz defends Chaz Turn 1 then continues he attacks (defence window still open from turn 1) Baz Turn 2 "I attack" Chaz's defence window from his Turn 1 is still open Chaz Turn 2 "...." only now does his defence window refresh
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-26-2019 at 04:17 AM. |
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