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Old 09-24-2019, 04:45 AM   #31
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancewholelot View Post
I tend to think of defense options taking effect after execution of action, since that's when weapon properties take effect on parry, though I think I do see your point. No defenses being allowed for an All Out Attack that is interrupted by a Wait seems logical, as does defense penalties for other attack options such as Committed Attack.

As far as I know though, someone doing a regular attack with an unbalanced weapon that is interrupted could choose to forgo their attack and parry instead since they had not yet executed. By that same logic, execution is the point that I've had the count for repeated defenses renew, though I concede you've a strong argument for it being otherwise.

The rules sure become fiddly when the Wait maneuver is employed. Exploitative players could turn it into a GM's nightmare.

Actually there's a nice trick you can do with Wait and an opponent using a 0U weapon if the 0U weapon user is on the offensive.

Barry (Baz to his mates) = Speed 5 broadsword
Charles (Chaz to his mates) = Speed 4 Axe

Starting position a hex between them

Baz Turn 1 = "I take a wait, when Chaz steps into 1 hex range I attack with my broadsword"
Chaz Turn 1 = "I step in one hex and attack with my axe"

Baz's Wait triggers when Chaz steps in, Baz attacks with his broadsword.

Now Chaz can defend without penalty and then make his attack.....but since his axe is 0U he can't parry and attack within the same turn! So he's limited to dodge or block (better hope he's got a shield). If he tries and boost his dodge with a retreat he's then out of range for his attack, and basically back to where he started!


Now obviously there are a few assumptions here, mainly the axe wielder has to come on, and the sword wielder has to be free to sit back and wait. But it's a nice way to use wait to leverage the difference between balanced and unbalanced weapons.


Now Chaz has other options, he can opt to do a "Defensive attack" from Martial Arts this allows him to ignore the 0U on his axe, but that reduces his damage. It has the added advantage that if Baz then attacks again after Chaz's attack goes off Baz can still parry if he needs to, albeit with -3 pen.

If Chaz's has got skill advantage (or other bonuses) he might opt to do a "Stop Hit" (also MA), this potentially allows him to parry Baz's triggered attack and attack back without worrying about 0U for that attack. But that 0U will still be a factor if Baz follows up immediately with his next turn still within Chaz's 1st turn defence window.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-24-2019 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:48 AM   #32
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancewholelot View Post
In fact, I usually play it as the stunned character just skipping a turn and rolling recovery at the beginning of the next. This avoids confusion over when defenses return to normal.
I do the same for exactly the same reason.





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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I find that the kind of combat (and that includes stats and skills) you tend to run will make certain maneuvers more or less attractive in different games.
Sure, and if I wasn't running DF I'd probably see more Waits. But I had this problem in my Fallout/AtE games as well, where I only ever saw Waits during ambushes and combat lulls (ranged combat lends itself to "I Wait to see him pop out of cover and shot him"). And even there, Waits were considered sub-optimal, only better than Do Nothing.

Last edited by evileeyore; 09-24-2019 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:46 AM   #33
hal
 
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

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Originally Posted by Lancewholelot View Post
Recently in a game I was running, a player took the Wait maneuver to attack a cave bear if it came toward him. Before this Wait was triggered the player was stunned by a sorceress' Death Vision spell. The cave bear then gets to move in on its turn without the stunned player getting the attack he was waiting for. The player's next turn starts and I tell him he must take the Do Nothing maneuver due to stun. The player protest that he had already lost a turn and should have already gotten a chance to recover. I stuck to my ruling, but how would you call it?
I'm going to try and be brief in my thoughts - but there are a few points that need to be clarified based upon your description above...
  1. Was the fighter aware of the mage being present?
  2. What was the positioning of the three elements outlined above?
  3. Was the Cave bear ever under full control of the mage? In other words, animals are unpredictable. A cavebear for example, would likely have desired that its target of its ire was intimidated enough to start running and turning its back to the bear.
  4. Did you take into account the fact that Death Vision would have required the mage take THREE consecutive concentrate manuevers. This is why I seriously doubt that the mage could have coordinated its spell sufficiently well enough to hit prior to the bear attacking.
  5. Did you give the player character fighter any perception rolls based on the rules on page 8 of GURPS MAGIC under the heading of Magic Rituals? Skill 10-14 precludes the mage being able to take a step and concentrate maneuver while casting. Since all regular spells are at -1 per hex between the caster and target - absent the "mage's touch" or use of the STAFF enchantment from the STAFF spell, a mage 3 hexes away from the Fighter would have suffered a -3 penalty to spell casting. If the bear was uncontrolled, and the mage was closer than the fighter to the bear, then the bear in all probability, if enraged would have struck out at the closest of its targets.

In all? No GM (my self included) can always be right all of the time while acting as a Referee at the table. GM's would always be advised to try and take into account things during gaming and if they make a mistake, simply accept it, learn from it, and move on. For all I know, everything I've pointed out above was taken into consideration.

Assuming that this was in a cavern - I'd have used the following modifiers for hearing rolls (just off the cuff without having the rules in front of me).

Any perception rolls for hearing would have been penalized by the bear's noise. It is unlikely however, the bear would have been a non-stop noise maker. I'd likely (as a GM convention of my own, not as part of the rules) would have rolled 1d6-2 and used that as a penalty for the perception roll for hearing other things. Between the growls, roars, etc, this would have been a fluid situation, not a constant. If the attack were in a cavern, I'd have definitely added a -2 penalty for the echoes.

Then I'd take into account that the mage casting that spell is at -1 per hex, spending 3 seconds to cast that spell. Unless the fighter player character is totally unware of the mage, I'd have said to the player "Make a perception roll please, then make an IQ roll." The first, to hear the sound, the second, to understand the sound.

If the first succeeds despite say, a -1 penalty due to that random 1d6-2 roll (the bear is growling would be my description), I'd say "you hear a human voice murmering in the background. If the IQ roll is made, I'd further describe it as "You hear forceful murmering, as if a spell incantation were in motion."

That is if the mage were out of sight of the player character. If the mage is IN sight of the fighter, when I'd have described "the mage begins chanting accompanied by hand gestures". Now the player of that character is between a rock and a hard place. Does he deal with the potentially hostile mage potentially casting a hostile spell on him, or does he deal with the oncoming bear? Me? I'd have started moving at FULL speed away from the BOTH of them. If I had naturalist, I might have even hatched a plan to try to get the bear to pass BY the mage. Remember the old joke - "I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have to outrun YOU".

But the reason being, assuming that conditions permitted it, I would want as MUCH space between myself and the mage to maximize my survival chances that by being further away, the spell casting for the mage becomes all the more difficult.

In the end? This is all "Second guessing" - which means that I may or may not be correct about the underlying situation. This was brought up in with the idea of "after action report" learning about what went down vs what probably could have been done better (in case you missed something here or there).

See my next post answering the specifics of your question and stuns and whether or not you chose correctly, to rule as you did. Quick answer, yes, you did. See next post as to why...
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:12 AM   #34
hal
 
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Stuns per the rules as written, take effect Immediately. Per the rules as written, they interrupt the actions of the target of the stun, and can only be shaken off after the target chooses to take a "Do Nothing" AFTER the stun was inflicted.

Curiously, the wording of WAIT specifies that it is a form of "Do nothing". See page 366:

Do nothing unless a particular event you specified in advance occurs before your next turn

It goes on to say this:

If that happens, you may transform your Wait into an Attack, Feint, All-Out Attack (you must specify the option before acting), or Ready maneuver.

Note that it doesn't say a word about being able to transform a wait into a do nothing maneuver. And there is a reason for this. How can you attempt to un-stun from an event that hasn't happened yet? Yes, the inter-weaving of activities between multiple characters in game play can be confusing (and leads to some really unsavory events that, this GM has made an attempt to rectify to where I no longer use the rules as written in that regard!).

So, to clarify with an example...

If my fighter takes the wait option, specifying as the trigger "as soon as HE comes within blade reach" is specific enough to trigger the moment I can attack your character upon coming within reach. This further means that I'm not waiting necessarily for your fighter character to come within one hex, it simply means that I'm waiting until you come close enough to where I CAN attack. The "Attack" maneuver specifies that I can step and attack, or Attack then step. If you're moving close into me, I'd chose the latter when you got adjacent, then step back as part of my "Step". It isn't a retreating dodge or anything like that, it is a specific attempt to attack while moving slightly backwards.

If my attack STUNS you at that point in time, the rule that stuns take place immediately results in your character's inability to do ANYTHING further until he can take a "Do nothing" maneuver in response to the stun AFTER it has occurred.

So, the wait the player took with his character - got interrupted, forcing him to abort his planned action (no different than my waiting forcing the incoming fighter's planned attack when I inflicted the physical stun on him with my attack into his attack - ie, waiting attack).
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:39 AM   #35
Plane
 
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Do we have any idea how much Altered Time Rate (extra maneuver may only be a Do Nothing) might cost?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
If he tries and boost his dodge with a retreat he's then out of range for his attack, and basically back to where he started!
Sideslip :) You only get +2 instead of +3 but it keeps you in range.

That or use extra effort to get AOA (Long) benefits (+1 to reach)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Now Chaz has other options, he can opt to do a "Defensive attack" from Martial Arts this allows him to ignore the 0U on his axe, but that reduces his damage. It has the added advantage that if Baz then attacks again after Chaz's attack goes off Baz can still parry if he needs to, albeit with -3 pen.

If Chaz's has got skill advantage (or other bonuses) he might opt to do a "Stop Hit" (also MA), this potentially allows him to parry Baz's triggered attack and attack back without worrying about 0U for that attack.
Since a Stop Hit is done using a Wait, this sounds like it would potentially lead to a Cascading Weights situation, do you know who would have the advantage there due to weapon length?

I think I recall something about unbalanced/swing weapons also getting penalties in that CW contest.

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that 0U will still be a factor if Baz follows up immediately with his next turn still within Chaz's 1st turn defence window.
You mean like if he had Extra Attack?
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:14 PM   #36
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Do we have any idea how much Altered Time Rate (extra maneuver may only be a Do Nothing) might cost?
Being as Resistant (Stunning, Immunity) would be about 30 points, probably around -70%.
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:16 PM   #37
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

RaW the fighter's following turn would need to resolve the Stun Effect of the spell. However, RaW I believe the fighter's held action would be executed as normal during the current turn as it is not part of their "Next Turn" but rather part of a turn that was resolve earlier than the witch's action.

For flow of combat I'd resolve the Stun on the Fighter's held action. It preserves the intent of the spell effect and still allows the witch to interfere with the fighter's plans.
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:36 PM   #38
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancewholelot View Post
As far as I know though, someone doing a regular attack with an unbalanced weapon that is interrupted could choose to forgo their attack and parry instead since they had not yet executed.
They aren't changing their maneuver doing that; they are simply using step and attack and then not actually attacking because they have no ready weapons.
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:57 PM   #39
Plane
 
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Being as Resistant (Stunning, Immunity) would be about 30 points, probably around -70%.
An extra "Do Nothing" maneuver only gives you a chance to roll to end the stun though, not a guarantee. So maybe -80%?

Although I guess there would be the side benefit of the penalty for cumulative active defenses resetting since it's a new maneuver, which stun immunity wouldn't give...
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Old 09-25-2019, 03:01 AM   #40
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Sideslip :) You only get +2 instead of +3 but it keeps you in range.
True!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
That or use extra effort to get AOA (Long) benefits (+1 to reach)
True again, but of course Baz can also leverage EE to pull stuff off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Since a Stop Hit is done using a Wait, this sounds like it would potentially lead to a Cascading Weights situation, do you know who would have the advantage there due to weapon length?

I think I recall something about unbalanced/swing weapons also getting penalties in that CW contest.

It's not cascading waits, it comes off Baz's defence / wait triggered attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
You mean like if he had Extra Attack?
yes, but in this case also Because Baz will be able to make another attack within Chaz's initial window of defence meaning if Chaz goes for a 2nd parry he'll be at -3. Again a dodge retreat (or sidestep) might be a good option.


it's as follows:

Baz Turn 1 "I wait, when Chaz steps into range I attack"

Chaz Turn 1 "I step in and attack"

Chaz Turn 1 starts his defence window starts, Chaz steps
...Baz's turn 1 wait triggers, he attacks, Chaz defends

Chaz Turn 1 then continues he attacks (defence window still open from turn 1)

Baz Turn 2 "I attack" Chaz's defence window from his Turn 1 is still open

Chaz Turn 2 "...." only now does his defence window refresh
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-26-2019 at 04:17 AM.
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