Why no Unarmed Swing damage?

[nick012000]

Looking through Martial Arts, it looks like almost all the techniques do Thrust damage, even the ones that involve a swinging motion to attack, like Axe Kick. Why? Shouldn't it do Swing damage, because you're swinging your foot into them? Hell, for that matter, why don't advantages like Talons or Long Talons that let you choose between Slashing and Impaling damage with unarmed attacks let you do Swing damage on the Slashing? I mean, Long Talons are described as being like a sword coming out of your arm, and yet it won't let you do Swing damage like an actual sword would.

It doesn't make any sense.

[roguebfl]

Swing Damage is reserved for weapons the provide leverage in 4e

now Claws do let you do slashing damage, that why they let you do (cut) rather than (cr), and talons do let you chose (imp) it's just based on thr.

The maneuvers that let you pack more 'umph' into your unarmed attack do sy by allowing to doe more damage per die rather than changing you to type swing.

[Ashtagon]

I suspect it is because when you examine the muscle action, it is a thrust, just not one that is directly away from the body. Swing attacks make use of a weighted business end that is distant from where the muscle action is happening. That extra length acts as a lever to multiply the effective force.

[DangerousThing]

I think that it's somewhat of a game design issue. Generally karate should do less damage than a sword. A cinematic martial artist has lethal strike and lethal kick. This allows them to do impaling damage which evens the odds a bit, especially when you include Power Blow.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

I think that it's somewhat of a game design issue. Generally karate should do less damage than a sword. A cinematic martial artist has lethal strike and lethal kick. This allows them to do impaling damage which evens the odds a bit, especially when you include Power Blow.

To amplify here is what Sean "Kromm" Punch said about it [with italics changed to underlines so they show up in the quote]

Originally Posted by Kromm

There were vocal complaints about advantages and striking techniques that let unarmed people do swing damage in 3e, so we removed the option in 4e. As things stand, unarmed strikes do thrust damage, melee weapon and muscle-powered missile strikes can sometimes act as levers and give swing damage, and high-tech weapons and super-powers often deliver damage that isn't tied to ST at all. That was a conscious design decision made in response to customer feedback. Technically, you can get swing damage unarmed . . . but to do so, you must grapple via special techniques that let you use your enemy's body as a melee weapon against himself. The point is, swing damage is associated with an external lever.

For hinged body parts or whatever, the correct fix is Striking ST with the -60% limitation that restricts it to one attack. For instance, suppose I have ST 14 and Dmg 1d/2d, and want to do swing damage with my tentacle. Fine . . . I take Striking ST 7 (One Attack Only, Tentacle, -60%) [14]. Now I have ST 21 with my tentacle, and its thrust damage is 2d, just like my base swing damage. Problem solved. As an added bonus, the body part's higher ST gives greater "effective weight" (p. B376), a better Beat, and more resistance to Wrench Limb attempts to damage it, all of which are consistent with something robust enough to be swung.

[bcd]

Bladed Hand from Martial Arts uses Brawling, Karate or DX and does Sw-2 cut.

Incidentally, a strict reading of the rules for the Karate skill reveal that you do not actually get a damage bonus for high skill when using bladed hands because the damage bonus only applies to thrust-based damage. You'd presumably need Weapon Master (Bladed Hand) for a damage bonus.

[Tomsdad]

It's already been said, but swing attacks require some kind of leverage above and beyond the limb in question (technically I guess 'Swing' damage is actually 'mechanically advantaged' damage).

Want to get Sw damage on a kick? Wear some stilts!

Originally Posted by bcd

Bladed Hand from Martial Arts uses Brawling, Karate or DX and does Sw-2 cut.

Incidentally, a strict reading of the rules for the Karate skill reveal that you do not actually get a damage bonus for high skill when using bladed hands because the damage bonus only applies to thrust-based damage. You'd presumably need Weapon Master (Bladed Hand) for a damage bonus.

Personally I don't allow swung use of bladed hand off Karate skill initially, but allow it as a style perk for MA styles I reckon are a good match for it. But then that's because I view blade hands as pretty esoteric weapons that were only really used in specific MA contexts. As opposed to punching with a blade stuck on your hand.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by bcd

Bladed Hand from Martial Arts uses Brawling, Karate or DX and does Sw-2 cut.

Incidentally, a strict reading of the rules for the Karate skill reveal that you do not actually get a damage bonus for high skill when using bladed hands because the damage bonus only applies to thrust-based damage. You'd presumably need Weapon Master (Bladed Hand) for a damage bonus.

Actually Your wrong the do get the Karate bonus, Kromm has confirmed this and said if you think this might give them too much damage change the minim ST 4, so that they cap out ST 12.

Also remember this things extend 8-10 inches past the hand and are not the climbing claws.

[Varyon]

Personally, I'm suspicious of anything getting Swing damage at Reach C - when your target is within your personal reach, I don't think you can really benefit from a lever. Weapons that can currently get Swing Cutting damage at Reach C should probably have it reduced to Thrust Cutting, probably with the same damage modifier as the Thrust Impaling attack (a knife blade is comparable to a wide spear head, but even more so). Weapons that can do Swing Crushing at Reach C should probably have it reduced to Thrust Crushing, with the same damage modifier as the Swing version had (you're better off thrusting with a Short Baton at Reach C).

Of course, that's all just my opinion, and the damage totals probably end up being rather comparable anyway.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Personally, I'm suspicious of anything getting Swing damage at Reach C - when your target is within your personal reach, I don't think you can really benefit from a lever. Weapons that can currently get Swing Cutting damage at Reach C should probably have it reduced to Thrust Cutting, probably with the same damage modifier as the Thrust Impaling attack (a knife blade is comparable to a wide spear head, but even more so). Weapons that can do Swing Crushing at Reach C should probably have it reduced to Thrust Crushing, with the same damage modifier as the Swing version had (you're better off thrusting with a Short Baton at Reach C).

Of course, that's all just my opinion, and the damage totals probably end up being rather comparable anyway.

Actually that's a pretty good point (especially when you consider the rationale behind swing damage, levers do need a space to work in after all)