Stunned after taking Wait maneuver

[Plane]

Ah I see what you mean, he'd suffer the -4 for a cumulative parry? I hadn't really thought of that benefit of using Waits in terms of crowding your opponent's next turn by not attacking him during his previous one.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Plane

Ah I see what you mean, he'd suffer the -4 for a cumulative parry? I hadn't really thought of that benefit of using Waits in terms of crowding your opponent's next turn by not attacking him during his previous one.

Yep that right, it's a neat trick

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Plane

Do we have any idea how much Altered Time Rate (extra maneuver may only be a Do Nothing) might cost?

By RAW, the minimum is 20 points. What would I charge for it? Eh, like 10.

But I'd need a real interesting explanation of why the Character had an extra Maneuver specifically for Doing Nothing. Now, if it's just for Stun recovery?


The way I'd probably write it up:

Fast Stun Recovery 10 points
The Character rolls at the start and end of each of their Maneuvers to recover from Stunning. If the roll at the beginning of the Maneuver is successful they can chose any Maneuver, they are not forced to chose Do Nothing.

[Hide]

I'm with Eevee on this one.

As I see it, a wait maneuver puts you outside the "round's queue" until either the condition you specified takes place or until the next round starts. If something interrupts your wait maneuver, then you are "forced into the round's queue".

Wait maneuvers per-se only allow "reflex actions”. IMO, recovery from a condition/situation interrupting your wait maneuver is pretty much a reflex that takes immediately after your wait is interrupted and before the round is over.

So it is inappropriate to force “you do nothing” after the stun has been resolved. The guy might not get his chance to reflex-attack the bear, but the character should get at least a chance to reflex-recover from the condition before the round ends.

My logic behind this is simple, if a faster character stuns you during round #1, do you get a chance to recover once your turn comes, or until round #2? You get to recover during round 1, other faster characters might attack you before your turn comes, but if you are faster than them you get your chance to recover.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Hide

I'm with Eevee on this one.


So it is inappropriate to force “you do nothing” after the stun has been resolved. The guy might not get his chance to reflex-attack the bear, but the character should get at least a chance to reflex-recover from the condition before the round ends.

The only "nit" if you will is this:

you do not roll to unstun until AFTER you take a complete turn to do nothing. Not the other way around. If the roll were BEFORE the "do nothing" maneuver, that would be one thing. Doing the roll AFTER the entire turn is spent doing nothing - is what the rules specify.

Frankly? I've never liked the fact that one can wait, attack into someone else's turn, then attack again and from the defender's point of view - have to defend against what ordinarily takes an all out attack to achieve...

Case in point? Without anything else involved (ie Martial arts etc), if it took an all out attack to produce 2 attacks in one second, then anything that acts like two attacks within one second should be deemed an all out attack right?

Person A (attacker) sees two seconds with a wait and then normal attack, Person D sees one second, with two incoming attacks.

DEFINITELY a disconnect here.

What bothers me is that the time spent waiting for someone to move within range, then attack, then recover from the attack, and then attack again - all takes place within the span of either 2 seconds OR 1 second - BOTH at the same time.

<shrug>

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Hide

...
My logic behind this is simple, if a faster character stuns you during round #1, do you get a chance to recover once your turn comes, or until round #2? You get to recover during round 1, other faster characters might attack you before your turn comes, but if you are faster than them you get your chance to recover.

Right but we're talking about a Wait and stun recovery, and weather the wait should be used to recover in.

Or put it this way, if a faster character gets hit after their turn but before their next one, they have to use their next one to recover in.


A wait is their previous turn held, and it comes with advantages (you can insert it into the action when it suits you) but it comes with limitations and one of them is you can't freely use to respond to stuff that isn't what you planned to respond do.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Lancewholelot

Recently in a game I was running, a player took the Wait maneuver to attack a cave bear if it came toward him. Before this Wait was triggered the player was stunned by a sorceress' Death Vision spell. The cave bear then gets to move in on its turn without the stunned player getting the attack he was waiting for. The player's next turn starts and I tell him he must take the Do Nothing maneuver due to stun. The player protest that he had already lost a turn and should have already gotten a chance to recover. I stuck to my ruling, but how would you call it?

Suppose that the sorceress didn't cast the Death Vision spell and the cave bear came toward him triggering the Wait; he missed and the cave bear struck him, stunning him. In that case, there's no question that he has to take the Do Nothing maneuver on his next turn before he can recover.

Likewise, suppose the sorceress didn't cast Death Vision and he took a Do Nothing maneuver; the cave bear attacked and stunned him. The Do Nothing maneuver that he has already taken has nothing to do with the requirement to take a Do Nothing maneuver after being stunned, so he has to take a Do Nothing maneuver on his next turn.

So, in the case of his Wait not triggering and getting stunned by the Death Vision, I'd say the Wait wasn't even taking a Do Nothing maneuver on this turn before being stunned, so he definitely has to spend his next turn with a Do Nothing maneuver.

[evileeyore]

This argument mostly comes down to "when does the turn end" and "does Stun Recovery explicitly require you to be Doing Nothing in order to make a recovery roll"?


Turn Ending Per the FAQ:

"3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end?

Your turn ends after you've chosen, executed, and ended a maneuver -- Attack, Concentrate, etc."


Thus, my ruling, the Character's turn was not over, the Wait had not yet been finalized.


Does Stun require one to be Doing Nothing to make a recovery roll? This one is murkier. My gut says "No", but I can see a literalist argument for yes (this argument feels like a stretch though).

For Example:

Biff sets a Wait: "If my foe looks to be about to attack, I step and Attack."

Skiff decides his foe is just sitting around Doing Nothing, it's time to launch an AOA (Strong) and end this fight.

Biff's Wait triggers, he steps and Attacks, hits Skiff in the face causing a Stun and Knockdown.


How many turns does Skiff have to lose to Stun before he's allowed to roll?

By my ruling 1, Skiff's turn resolves with him on the ground having lost his actions, he then ends his turn and makes a Stun Recovery roll.

By most everyone else's, 2.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Right but we're talking about a Wait and stun recovery, and weather the wait should be used to recover in.

Originally Posted by hal

The only "nit" if you will is this: (...) you do not roll to unstun until AFTER you take a complete turn to do nothing.

Indeed, IMO if you take a wait, then your turn has not really come into play.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Or put it this way, if a faster character gets hit after their turn but before their next one, they have to use their next one to recover in.

Agreed, and what I consider is that if you take a wait, then you have not spent your turn. You are still in round #1 and your turn is yet to come.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

A wait is their previous turn held, and it comes with advantages (you can insert it into the action when it suits you) but it comes with limitations and one of them is you can't freely use to respond to stuff that isn't what you planned to respond do.

I agree with this as well, that's why I previously said "you can only take 'reflex actions'".

Originally Posted by evileeyore

This argument mostly comes down to "when does the turn end" and "does Stun Recovery explicitly require you to be Doing Nothing in order to make a recovery roll"?

Turn Ending Per the FAQ:

"3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end?

Your turn ends after you've chosen, executed, and ended a maneuver -- Attack, Concentrate, etc." Thus, my ruling, the Character's turn was not over, the Wait had not yet been finalized.

Does Stun require one to be Doing Nothing to make a recovery roll? This one is murkier. My gut says "No", but I can see a literalist argument for yes (this argument feels like a stretch though)(...)

Of course!

Also, think about it, (natural) recovery is not a planned action. Recovery is an event taking place during your turn. Hence, in this situation recovery takes place instead of your planned action during the turn that has not yet happened/ended (the wait).

So, the player might end "doing nothing" in the sense of being deprived from taking retreats or attacking; however, the player should have another chance to recover and defend without a -4 before round #1 ends because his turn was not effectively spent. Otherwise, I think it is a bit punishing on the player’s initiative, and a big deterrent to fighting creatively.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

"3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end?

Your turn ends after you've chosen, executed, and ended a maneuver -- Attack, Concentrate, etc."


Thus, my ruling, the Character's turn was not over, the Wait had not yet been finalized.

The wait is finalized -- it is place. It has not been triggered, but that's not a requirement.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Does Stun require one to be Doing Nothing to make a recovery roll?

Yes. It is an explicit property of the Do Nothing maneuver that you can recover from stunning, and the rules for stunning do not permit any action other than Do Nothing and do not specify any other means of recovery.