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Old 06-20-2014, 02:50 PM   #21
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
It is stated in BS, p. 383. "This is not a specific maneuver, but a “generic” choice that lets you do one second’s worth of any multi-second action.
I don't think there's anything that supports a Ready being used as an Attack or something. There's no examples of Ready doing anything remotely like what you are saying.

Quote:
To me it seems that Wait is a very specific maneuver triggered by a specific event, that demands all the character's attention and no movement at all. I think the confusion comes from its name, and from the fact that in 3rd. it was different.
You can move with a Wait if the triggered maneuver allows movement, by RAW.

Really, just allowing a Step and Wait that can turn into an Attack or All-Out-Attack, solves the problem.
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Old 06-20-2014, 02:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
It is stated in BS, p. 383. "This is not a specific maneuver, but a “generic” choice that lets you do one second’s worth of any multi-second action.

To me it seems that Wait is a very specific maneuver triggered by a specific event, that demands all the character's attention and no movement at all. I think the confusion comes from its name, and from the fact that in 3rd. it was different.
The "confusion" comes from reading the rules actually in the book and not deciding to make up radical new functionality outside of them.
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Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
This may well be a problem without solution within raw, as Ulzgoroth believes. If it is, though, I don't think the problem is with using the Ready maneuver for approaching a corner, but with the (no-)conditions of the Wait.
There's nothing wrong with using a Ready maneuver to approach a corner, except that it won't give you any ability to react to what you find, because you took a Ready maneuver rather than a Wait.
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Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
No, you can't. You can't attack, because you don't have a target. Do nothing demands you not to move at all.
You can't attack. I don't see any reason you couldn't Attack, really. Not that it makes any difference. Being able to take a step and not do anything else: not an issue.
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Old 06-20-2014, 03:39 PM   #23
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

Guys, I have agreed with you a long time ago in that allowing a Step and Wait solves the matter. But this would be house rules. Indeed, I have been playing this way, because I was used to 3rd. after all.

But this topic was proposed to solve some problems and try new approaches in raw, to begin with.

Quote:
You can move with a Wait if the triggered maneuver allows movement, by RAW
.

Where have you seen it? There is some suggestion, but the rule states you cannot.

Quote:
Being able to take a step and not do anything else: not an issue.
Yeah, it is an issue. When you are closing in a foe in a 3-yard-wide hex, he can run past you. If you take a Wait maneuver, you are not able to approach him. What I tried to consider was if maybe - only maybe - a Ready maneuver, as a generic maneuver for any small physical act in combat, being allowed inside Wait could not be a way the original rules tried to deal with that.

Otherwise, what you both are saying is that this is a problem without solution at all in raw, that there is no way to approach a corner or to close in an enemy in a dead-end alley other than to allow a new maneuver called Step and Wait, in which you can use the step portion of your future maneuver beforehand. It might be the case. Indeed, 3rd. edition had a lot of problems for years. Kromm's explanation in this forum could become a future errata, who knows?

I'm just considering some possibilities. In this one, the Ready maneuver means keeping alert and with a ready weapon in certain situations, which could justify the description of TS p. 24, that you must go allert one yard per second.

Quote:
I don't see any reason you couldn't Attack, really.
Description of Attack: "If you are using a melee weapon or unarmed attack, your target must be within reach." / "If you are using a ranged weapon, your target must be within the weapon’s Max range." You cannot Attack.

Quote:
There's nothing wrong with using a Ready maneuver to approach a corner, except that it won't give you any ability to react to what you find, because you took a Ready maneuver rather than a Wait.
Wrong. You cannot react in the same turn, nor your foe. Allowing players to approach to unknown places using Ready would create a three level interaction.

1) An enemy that took Wait, and is really concentrated, with all its atention dedicated to that corner. He acts first, as specified in Opportunity Fire;

2) Soldiers who are focused, but as are walking 1 yard per second and have a wider range, take Ready maneuvers, and are under the rules of TS p. 24.

3) Soldiers who run, and suffer the penalties specified in TS p. 24: -2 in Per and Skill.
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
Where have you seen it? There is some suggestion, but the rule states you cannot.
No, the rules certainly state that you can take the movement that comes with the maneuver you Waited to perform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
Yeah, it is an issue. When you are closing in a foe in a 3-yard-wide hex, he can run past you. If you take a Wait maneuver, you are not able to approach him. What I tried to consider was if maybe - only maybe - a Ready maneuver, as a generic maneuver for any small physical act in combat, being allowed inside Wait could not be a way the original rules tried to deal with that.
...But it does absolutely nothing useful. If you want to move and not do other things, you could use a Ready maneuver and twiddle your thumbs, yes. Or you could take a Move maneuver. Or lots of things.

If you want to have the ability to make a reactive attack, you need to Wait. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
Wrong. You cannot react in the same turn, nor your foe. Allowing players to approach to unknown places using Ready would create a three level interaction.

1) An enemy that took Wait, and is really concentrated, with all its atention dedicated to that corner. He acts first, as specified in Opportunity Fire;

2) Soldiers who are focused, but as are walking 1 yard per second and have a wider range, take Ready maneuvers, and are under the rules of TS p. 24.

3) Soldiers who run, and suffer the penalties specified in TS p. 24: -2 in Per and Skill.
...Except the ones who did #3 get to shoot, because their maneuver is Move and Attack. The ones who did #2 don't get to shoot.

If you're not going to bother to shoot, why not just take Move? It doesn't give you any penalties either.
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Old 06-20-2014, 05:44 PM   #25
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

Firstly, marcusgurspmaster, please do not quote me without attribution. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
Where have you seen it? There is some suggestion, but the rule states you cannot.
On B366 where the Wait Manuever is explained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B366
At that point, you may move as allowed by the maneuver you specified (Attack, Feint, All-Out Attack, or Ready).
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
Otherwise, what you both are saying is that this is a problem without solution at all in raw, that there is no way to approach a corner or to close in an enemy in a dead-end alley other than to allow a new maneuver called Step and Wait, in which you can use the step portion of your future maneuver beforehand. It might be the case. Indeed, 3rd. edition had a lot of problems for years. Kromm's explanation in this forum could become a future errata, who knows?
Honestly, if I had noticed this issue during the Tactical Shooting playtest, I would have brought it up. Maybe HANS can comment about whether he'd have included it, but I imagine he would have. Simply, nobody noticed this until much later.
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I'm just considering some possibilities. In this one, the Ready maneuver means keeping alert and with a ready weapon in certain situations, which could justify the description of TS p. 24, that you must go allert one yard per second.
What good does that do you? You can't Attack with a Ready maneuver, ever. I'm also not sure where you are getting that Ready is a "generic maneuver from.
B366 gives three (and only three) uses for Ready:
  1. "Take a Ready maneuver to pick up or draw any item and prepare it for use;"
  2. "You can use a Ready maneuver to perform physical actions other than fighting: opening or closing a door, picking a lock, digging, lifting, etc."
  3. "Finally, a Ready maneuver lets you switch an advantage “off” or “on” if it is not always on and does not require an Attack or Concentrate maneuver to use."
The Maneuver Table (B551) says only, "Prepare a weapon or other item"

The theme here is consistent, IMO, you are readying some object or ability for use. Are you sure you don't have the GURPS Ready Maneuver confused with D&D 3.x or Pathfinder's Ready Action?
Quote:
Description of Attack: "If you are using a melee weapon or unarmed attack, your target must be within reach." / "If you are using a ranged weapon, your target must be within the weapon’s Max range." You cannot Attack.
Of course you can't attack something you can't hit. I don't understand the relevance though. Can you give a turn-by-turn example of how you think this matters?
Quote:
Wrong. You cannot react in the same turn, nor your foe. Allowing players to approach to unknown places using Ready would create a three level interaction.
You'll be able to (forced to, actually) choose a new Maneuver on your next turn, regardless.

Quote:
2) Soldiers who are focused, but as are walking 1 yard per second and have a wider range, take Ready maneuvers, and are under the rules of TS p. 24.
What's the point? They can't attack on this turn, now.
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Old 06-20-2014, 06:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

...Actually, just re-reading it now, I don't think pie-slicing as written requires step-and-wait. I'm failing to remember why it seemed to. All it really calls for is Attack maneuvers.

That and describing your actions in terms of maneuvers while pretending to not be in combat time so you can use the whole 'who shoots first' roll-off.
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Old 06-20-2014, 06:39 PM   #27
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...Actually, just re-reading it now, I don't think pie-slicing as written requires step-and-wait. I'm failing to remember why it seemed to. All it really calls for is Attack maneuvers.
There's the whole "If they both took Wait maneuvers" in Turning Corners on p. 23, which isn't actually possible by RAW.

IME, allowing a Step with a Wait is more realistic, in terms of actually slicing the actual metaphorical pie in real MOUT translated to GURPS; which is why I'm inclined to house rule it for Blight Years (at least).
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Old 06-20-2014, 06:46 PM   #28
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
There's the whole "If they both took Wait maneuvers" in Turning Corners on p. 23, which isn't actually possible by RAW.
I don't see that text. There's a reference to a Wait maneuver as a possibility on page 24, but that's for someone lurking.

...Is there more than one version of the PDF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
IME, allowing a Step with a Wait is more realistic, in terms of actually slicing the actual metaphorical pie in real MOUT translated to GURPS; which is why I'm inclined to house rule it for Blight Years (at least).
Quite possibly...the Attack maneuver case would mean that somebody around the corner could always pop out on their turn and would get the drop on you. (Well, if you use the full rules, they couldn't, because they'd get an arbitrarily-dictated quasi-cascading-waits situation instead.)


I certainly agree that Step and Wait should be allowed.
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Old 06-20-2014, 06:48 PM   #29
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

Sorry about not quoting you specifically. I'm new to this html thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
On B366 where the Wait Manuever is explained.
The Wait description says emphatically you can make no move (none!, with exclamation mark) until the trigger event happens. At that point (presumably when and only if the trigger event happens), you can move whatever your chosen maneuver allows. This is p. 366 text as written. It is somewhat misleading, as said before in this this thread, though in other parts of the Basic Set, as in p. 385, the rules seem to assume that you can take part of the move in your own turn.

As I said, I used the old Step and Move without any qualms until very recently, because I am a 3rd. edition player, and haven't even noticed the way the rule is described in 4th ed. A new player told me that.

As GURPS combat system is relatively well crafted, and people spend hours testing it, I thought there might have been some purpose behind this change, so I brought up this issue, and tried some lame solutions inside this possible new context.

If the movement rule behind the text in p. 366 is the same as it was in 3rd edition, maybe there should be published an Errata like:

"At that point, you may move as allowed by the maneuver you specified (Attack, Feint, All-Out Attack, or Ready)". Alternatively, you can take a step during in your own turn, while performing the Wait maneuver. In this case, you cannot move at all later, when performing the maneuver specified.
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Old 06-20-2014, 06:55 PM   #30
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Default Re: Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

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Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster View Post
The Wait description says emphatically you can make no move (none!, with exclamation mark) until the trigger event happens. At that point (presumably when and only if the trigger event happens), you can move whatever your chosen maneuver allows. This is p. 366 text as written. It is somewhat misleading, as said before in this this thread, though in other parts of the Basic Set, as in p. 385, the rules seem to assume that you can take part of the move in your own turn.
Ah-hah! In GURPS there is no "round" or "global turn" as in many other games, so that movement is during your own turn, and critically Wait doesn't reset your sequence (unlike say Pathfinder's Delay and Ready Actions which do change your Initiative). Is that what's confusing you?

Quote:
"At that point, you may move as allowed by the maneuver you specified (Attack, Feint, All-Out Attack, or Ready)". Alternatively, you can take a step during in your own turn, while performing the Wait maneuver. In this case, you cannot move at all later, when performing the maneuver specified.
This is totally fine as a house rule! This is what I will be using in The Blight Years (for example):

"Step and Wait: You may take a Step when Waiting. This replaces any movement from the triggered action (so it’s pointless to trigger a Move or Move and Attack)."

Last edited by sir_pudding; 06-20-2014 at 07:02 PM.
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